Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[ArgonautX]

Bicycle is a lot safer than a motorcycle, speeds are usually slower, the mass of the bike is very low compared to your average motorcycle. That said, if you're hit by a car or truck, it doesn't really matter that much whether you're cycling or driving a motorbike. That's why I try to stay away from roads.

When I was younger, I was dumb enough to cycle on the road - truth be said, there were less cars on the road back then.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

ArgonautX said:

Bicycle is a lot safer than a motorcycle, speeds are usually slower, the mass of the bike is very low compared to your average motorcycle. That said, if you're hit by a car or truck, it doesn't really matter that much whether you're cycling or driving a motorbike. That's why I try to stay away from roads.

When I was younger, I was dumb enough to cycle on the road - truth be said, there were less cars on the road back then.

I cycle on the roads. I must confess to doing more indoor training these days after having a couple of nasty accidents in the past (ice!). I have only been hit by a car once, fortunately it was slow speed, they accepted liability and paid for minor damages. I was pretty unscathed fortunately.

[SpeckledJim]

flemke said:

I wonder if bus companies would have any liability if a cyclist/biker were seriously injured as a result of leaking diesel? One appreciates that it might be difficult to prove specific causality, but it would not be impossible in all cases.

I would expect so.

Farmers can be held liable if they leave mud on the road.

[flemke]

ArgonautX said:

Bicycle is a lot safer than a motorcycle, speeds are usually slower, the mass of the bike is very low compared to your average motorcycle. That said, if you're hit by a car or truck, it doesn't really matter that much whether you're cycling or driving a motorbike. That's why I try to stay away from roads.

When I was younger, I was dumb enough to cycle on the road - truth be said, there were less cars on the road back then.

In the UK in 2018 (most recent data), the fatalities per mode were:

- Cycling: 99 in 3b miles
- Motorcycling: 354 in 3b miles
- Pedestrians: 456 in 14b miles

I'm not surprised that biking is 3.5x as high as cycling, but it is surprising that walking is almost exactly the same as cycling.

What I would say about motorbiking is that one sees bikers doing things such as dodgy overtakes on B-roads and filtering on motorways that are both unnecessary and patently riskier than 'normal' riding would be. This raises the question of to what extent motorbiking is inherently riskier than cycling, as opposed to having a higher fatality rate because too many bikers act do foolish things.
The same might be asked about cyclists, as each year there are fatalities because urban cyclists will ride up the inside of big lorries that are turning left.
It would also be interesting to see the number of fatalities by mode when no (other) vehicle was involved.

[flemke]

SpeckledJim said:

flemke said:

I wonder if bus companies would have any liability if a cyclist/biker were seriously injured as a result of leaking diesel? One appreciates that it might be difficult to prove specific causality, but it would not be impossible in all cases.

I would expect so.

Farmers can be held liable if they leave mud on the road.

They can indeed. Not sure when was the last time I read about charges being brought for the offence, but at certain times of year it's not hard to find a road that a tractor has left covered in mud.
As a generalisation, I think the public have sympathy for hard-working farmers; perhaps less so for transportation conglomerates that don't maintain their buses properly.

[Sway]

flemke said:

SpeckledJim said:

flemke said:

I wonder if bus companies would have any liability if a cyclist/biker were seriously injured as a result of leaking diesel? One appreciates that it might be difficult to prove specific causality, but it would not be impossible in all cases.

I would expect so.

Farmers can be held liable if they leave mud on the road.

They can indeed. Not sure when was the last time I read about charges being brought for the offence, but at certain times of year it's not hard to find a road that a tractor has left covered in mud.
As a generalisation, I think the public have sympathy for hard-working farmers; perhaps less so for transportation conglomerates that don't maintain their buses properly.

Round 'ere, the farmers are absolutely brilliant at dealing with mud. Several full time road sweepers at the appropriate times.

A bigger risk is actually diesel - for some reason agricultural vehicles seem to lose their fuel caps quite frequently, and so sploshes get splashed at seemingly random spots.

[Esceptico]

flemke said:

ArgonautX said:

Bicycle is a lot safer than a motorcycle, speeds are usually slower, the mass of the bike is very low compared to your average motorcycle. That said, if you're hit by a car or truck, it doesn't really matter that much whether you're cycling or driving a motorbike. That's why I try to stay away from roads.

When I was younger, I was dumb enough to cycle on the road - truth be said, there were less cars on the road back then.

In the UK in 2018 (most recent data), the fatalities per mode were:

- Cycling: 99 in 3b miles
- Motorcycling: 354 in 3b miles
- Pedestrians: 456 in 14b miles

I'm not surprised that biking is 3.5x as high as cycling, but it is surprising that walking is almost exactly the same as cycling.

What I would say about motorbiking is that one sees bikers doing things such as dodgy overtakes on B-roads and filtering on motorways that are both unnecessary and patently riskier than 'normal' riding would be. This raises the question of to what extent motorbiking is inherently riskier than cycling, as opposed to having a higher fatality rate because too many bikers act do foolish things.
The same might be asked about cyclists, as each year there are fatalities because urban cyclists will ride up the inside of big lorries that are turning left.
It would also be interesting to see the number of fatalities by mode when no (other) vehicle was involved.

A lot of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle on A and B roads (basically rider error). Motorcycling is a mode of transport for some but for many a hobby and/or extreme sport so not surprising that fatalities are higher than cars or cycling (but I think on par with some horse sports like eventing).

If you have had a car licence for a while it is pretty easy to get a full bike licence (unless it has changed dramatically since I did it in the 90s). For me it was half a day for the CBT then I think only four lessons on big bikes before the test (I did hire a 125 for a day to practice the manoeuvres). That was it. Then I could buy what I wanted (and could insure). I went for a sports 600 but even that had 100 bhp and weighed less than 200 kg so was insanely fast. You would probably baulk at giving a newly qualified driver the keys to your F1 but newly qualified motorcyclists can buy bikes with superior power to weight ratios for peanuts. Not surprising it can end in tears.

[SpeckledJim]

Esceptico said:

A lot of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle on A and B roads (basically rider error). Motorcycling is a mode of transport for some but for many a hobby and/or extreme sport so not surprising that fatalities are higher than cars or cycling (but I think on par with some horse sports like eventing).

If you have had a car licence for a while it is pretty easy to get a full bike licence (unless it has changed dramatically since I did it in the 90s). For me it was half a day for the CBT then I think only four lessons on big bikes before the test (I did hire a 125 for a day to practice the manoeuvres). That was it. Then I could buy what I wanted (and could insure). I went for a sports 600 but even that had 100 bhp and weighed less than 200 kg so was insanely fast. You would probably baulk at giving a newly qualified driver the keys to your F1 but newly qualified motorcyclists can buy bikes with superior power to weight ratios for peanuts. Not surprising it can end in tears.

The modern system is quite a lot more involved than the old system, but yes, it's still pretty easy to get on a 200bhp superbike 'from cold' as long as you're not also young.

[jhoneyball]

flemke said:

In the UK in 2018 (most recent data), the fatalities per mode were:

- Cycling: 99 in 3b miles
- Motorcycling: 354 in 3b miles
- Pedestrians: 456 in 14b miles

I'm not surprised that biking is 3.5x as high as cycling, but it is surprising that walking is almost exactly the same as cycling.

What I would say about motorbiking is that one sees bikers doing things such as dodgy overtakes on B-roads and filtering on motorways that are both unnecessary and patently riskier than 'normal' riding would be. This raises the question of to what extent motorbiking is inherently riskier than cycling, as opposed to having a higher fatality rate because too many bikers act do foolish things.
The same might be asked about cyclists, as each year there are fatalities because urban cyclists will ride up the inside of big lorries that are turning left.
It would also be interesting to see the number of fatalities by mode when no (other) vehicle was involved.

I read somewhere that 25% of motorbike accidents dont involve another vehicle. I shall try to track down the source, to see if it was real or not, or just my imagination

Ah here you go: " Surprisingly, almost a quarter of the motorbike accidents recorded didn't actually involve another vehicle."

https://www.bikerlaw.co.uk/articles-and-case-studi...

[jhoneyball]

Esceptico said:

If you have had a car licence for a while it is pretty easy to get a full bike licence (unless it has changed dramatically since I did it in the 90s). For me it was half a day for the CBT then I think only four lessons on big bikes before the test (I did hire a 125 for a day to practice the manoeuvres). That was it.

Quite different now. Computer based test first (the car one doesnt apply to motorbike). Then CBT. Then MOD1 which is off-public-road testing (maveouvering, u turns, avoidance, weaving between cones etc etc). Then MOD2 which is 45mins - 60mins on road with examiner following you

[SpeckledJim]

jhoneyball said:

I read somewhere that 25% of motorbike accidents dont involve another vehicle. I shall try to track down the source, to see if it was real or not, or just my imagination

Ah here you go: " Surprisingly, almost a quarter of the motorbike accidents recorded didn't actually involve another vehicle."

https://www.bikerlaw.co.uk/articles-and-case-studi...

A lot of that quarter will not be regular bikers on the way to work, but out-of-practice straight-line-heroes on the first sunny weekends of April attempting to complete the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.

[SpeckledJim]

jhoneyball said:

I read somewhere that 25% of motorbike accidents dont involve another vehicle. I shall try to track down the source, to see if it was real or not, or just my imagination

Ah here you go: " Surprisingly, almost a quarter of the motorbike accidents recorded didn't actually involve another vehicle."

https://www.bikerlaw.co.uk/articles-and-case-studi...

A lot of that quarter will not be regular bikers on the way to work, but out-of-practice straight-line-heroes on the first sunny weekends of April attempting to complete the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.

And while the accident doesn't strictly involve another vehicle directly, a lot of them will be due to trying to keep up with a more talented / more unhinged mate.

[Limpet]

SpeckledJim said:

And while the accident doesn't strictly involve another vehicle directly, a lot of them will be due to trying to keep up with a more talented / more unhinged mate.

That is a very easy trap to fall into. I've caught myself doing it before, and thankfully come to my senses / had a word with myself before anything went wrong.

[Powderpuff]

Whilst your average biker is wearing considerably better safety kit that your average cyclist, they'll also be travelling on average a lot faster.

We've all seen the racers fall off and slide along on their arse at 100mph before getting up and walking away, it's the sudden stop of hitting another vehicle or 'road furniture' that makes a road off far more serious.

I love biking, but I'm conscious it only takes a small error by me or someone else to turn a cracking ride into what could be a life changing or ending accident.

[shirt]

jhoneyball said:

Quite different now. Computer based test first (the car one doesnt apply to motorbike). Then CBT. Then MOD1 which is off-public-road testing (maveouvering, u turns, avoidance, weaving between cones etc etc). Then MOD2 which is 45mins - 60mins on road with examiner following you

For mine (non uk) I had to do an almost insultingly easy online test, 8hrs of yard skills (5 manouvres repeated drill fashion) and test, then 4hrs road skills (the same 5min loop on repeat) and test (that 5min loop). I then went and bought a Ducati

[S1KRR]

shirt said:

For mine (non uk) I had to do an almost insultingly easy online test, 8hrs of yard skills (5 manouvres repeated drill fashion) and test, then 4hrs road skills (the same 5min loop on repeat) and test (that 5min loop). I then went and bought a Ducati

Sounds a lot like DAS was back in the day


Flemke, more questions

1) What was your first car? (And in the spirit of so many as they get older and more nostalgic , have you ever considered seeking out a nice "investment" standard one to drive occasionally for the memories?)
2) What was your first "good" car (Description of good entirely up to you)
3) What was the last car you drove for more than 50miles?
4) What's the furthest you've ever cycled?

[h0b0]

S1KRR said:

Sounds a lot like DAS was back in the day


Flemke, more questions

1) What was your first car? (And in the spirit of so many as they get older and more nostalgic , have you ever considered seeking out a nice "investment" standard one to drive occasionally for the memories?)
2) What was your first "good" car (Description of good entirely up to you)
3) What was the last car you drove for more than 50miles?
4) What's the furthest you've ever cycled?

1) TVR
2) TVR
3) From the sounds of things TVR
4) Not sure but probably due to the TVR breaking down.

I think I may be 50% right at best

Edited by h0b0 on Monday 20th July 21:20

[flemke]

shirt said:

For mine (non uk) I had to do an almost insultingly easy online test, 8hrs of yard skills (5 manouvres repeated drill fashion) and test, then 4hrs road skills (the same 5min loop on repeat) and test (that 5min loop). I then went and bought a Ducati

I would probably do the same, which is why it was a good idea for me not to get started.

[flemke]

S1KRR said:

shirt said:

For mine (non uk) I had to do an almost insultingly easy online test, 8hrs of yard skills (5 manouvres repeated drill fashion) and test, then 4hrs road skills (the same 5min loop on repeat) and test (that 5min loop). I then went and bought a Ducati

Sounds a lot like DAS was back in the day


Flemke, more questions

1) What was your first car? (And in the spirit of so many as they get older and more nostalgic , have you ever considered seeking out a nice "investment" standard one to drive occasionally for the memories?)
2) What was your first "good" car (Description of good entirely up to you)
3) What was the last car you drove for more than 50miles?
4) What's the furthest you've ever cycled?

h0b0 has got some of it.

1) Cerbera. No, I wouldn't have another - too many problems with...everything.
2) 550
3) I presume you mean '50 (or more) miles in one go': CLS AMG four days ago.
4) I presume you mean 'farthest cycled in one go/day': 113 miles.

[stevesingo]

flemke said:

h0b0 has got some of it.

1) Cerbera. No, I wouldn't have another - too many problems with...everything.
2) 550
3) I presume you mean '50 (or more) miles in one go': CLS AMG four days ago.
4) I presume you mean 'farthest cycled in one go/day': 113 miles.

Fred Whitton?