Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Antony Moxey said:
DanL said:
Antony Moxey said:
A somewhat surprising answer from someone who owns a number of super cars including arguably the greatest one of them all.
Well, that begs the question - with a few already, do you need another one? 
I’d have imagined that a few T50/T33 owners would buy one to have an “F1-like” experience in a modern car, so they can have the thrills while keeping miles off the F1…
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Antony Moxey said:
DanL said:
Antony Moxey said:
A somewhat surprising answer from someone who owns a number of super cars including arguably the greatest one of them all.
Well, that begs the question - with a few already, do you need another one? I’d have imagined that a few T50/T33 owners would buy one to have an “F1-like” experience in a modern car, so they can have the thrills while keeping miles off the F1…
SpeckledJim said:
T.33 makes T.50 looks like an abortive early styling exercise that didn’t get taken forward.
It’s MILES nicer.
Do we know who has drawn the cars? Or are they kept locked in a broom cupboard lest us learning their name diminishes the glorious spotlight on St. Gordon?
Agreed. Apart from the dark cutout between the wheels. I know it’s very much the fashion and I’m the one who’s out of step, but I don’t really like the banana shaped look.It’s MILES nicer.
Do we know who has drawn the cars? Or are they kept locked in a broom cupboard lest us learning their name diminishes the glorious spotlight on St. Gordon?
CanAm said:
Agreed. Apart from the dark cutout between the wheels. I know it’s very much the fashion and I’m the one who’s out of step, but I don’t really like the banana shaped look.
It helps modern cars because they're somewhat "fatter" there than cars used to be. It also hides vents for radiators on the T.33.My only critique is that is again very expensive and limited... But I guess it makes sense given their size and business model.
I wonder if Gordon would ever do a 4 door V12 manual?
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
flemke said:
What would I do with it - do laps around Harrods?
These things are fantastic bits of kit, but when the world does not really allow you to push on in an M3, I'm not sure what I would do with something much more potent.
I'm not sure, what do you do with your F1? These things are fantastic bits of kit, but when the world does not really allow you to push on in an M3, I'm not sure what I would do with something much more potent.
Antony Moxey said:
flemke said:
ArgonautX said:
T.33 is very nice. Much better looking than T.50. Flemke, onboard this time?
What would I do with it - do laps around Harrods? These things are fantastic bits of kit, but when the world does not really allow you to push on in an M3, I'm not sure what I would do with something much more potent.
)When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Antony Moxey said:
DanL said:
Antony Moxey said:
A somewhat surprising answer from someone who owns a number of super cars including arguably the greatest one of them all.
Well, that begs the question - with a few already, do you need another one? I’d have imagined that a few T50/T33 owners would buy one to have an “F1-like” experience in a modern car, so they can have the thrills while keeping miles off the F1…
flemke said:
Very fair points (and not unexpected. )
When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
All fair points and not unexpected. )When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
However, I must say, even sitting in traffic or moving slightly in a V8 or V12 is a fun thing for me. Actually, moving from standstill is one of those things where you most notice higher cylinder count engines because they have more powerstrokes so they are not jittery or unwilling on lover revs. That easygoing nature of big engines is them "working" more of the time than their lower cylinder counterparts. Not to say that those things are worth investing 1.x million pounds, naturally.
I understand your points completely. I think, If I had money and resources to have/buy a car like F1/T.anything, it would hurt me more having it in the garage and not being able to use it, than not being an owner. Atleast I tell myself that
ArgonautX said:
flemke said:
Very fair points (and not unexpected. )
When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
All fair points and not unexpected. )When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
However, I must say, even sitting in traffic or moving slightly in a V8 or V12 is a fun thing for me. Actually, moving from standstill is one of those things where you most notice higher cylinder count engines because they have more powerstrokes so they are not jittery or unwilling on lover revs. That easygoing nature of big engines is them "working" more of the time than their lower cylinder counterparts. Not to say that those things are worth investing 1.x million pounds, naturally.
I understand your points completely. I think, If I had money and resources to have/buy a car like F1/T.anything, it would hurt me more having it in the garage and not being able to use it, than not being an owner. Atleast I tell myself that
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
flemke said:
Very fair points (and not unexpected. )
When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
That's really interesting Flemke. It's more about the experience as you say, and the opportunities to really stretch cars are now very limited on road. )When I got my F1 twenty-one years ago, the driving environment was different - not as good as it was thirty-one or forty-one years ago, but a lot better than it is today, in terms of traffic, condition of roads, anti-car mentality, ability to do proper road driving on the Continent et al.
Another factor, for me, is that the F1 is hard to drive and I like that challenge, the need to be on top of one's game every moment. The T.33, and pretty much every modern supercar, are much easier to drive.
Then there is the consideration that, the more really nice cars you are lucky enough to have, the less time you have to enjoy each of them.
Because I have had the F1 for twenty-one years, that also means that I am now somewhere between twenty and twenty-two years older than I was when I bought it, and what I do has evolved in the interim.
Have you ever been tempted to try the race car experience? There are plenty of outfits (TDF amongst others) that will keep and run an old F1 car for you on private Test days for much less than the cost of a T.33 let alone T.50.
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
Slippydiff99 said:
.... the opportunities to really stretch cars are now very limited on road.....
My take on the state of arms race in cars these days too. A fortunate PH'er had a thread about an 812 Superfast the other day and many posters said how a switchable exhaust should be added - providing this video clip:
I have posted that I should hand in a PH card, but I find that ^^^ nothing more than a point and squirt drive (ironically probably better delivered by a EV these days !).
I can't get excited at the thought of driving this level of power car (fortunately). I would not want to be honest.
trackdemon said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
PushedDover said:
My take on the state of arms race in cars these days too.
A fortunate PH'er had a thread about an 812 Superfast the other day and many posters said how a switchable exhaust should be added - providing this video clip:
I have posted that I should hand in a PH card, but I find that ^^^ nothing more than a point and squirt drive (ironically probably better delivered by a EV these days !).
I can't get excited at the thought of driving this level of power car (fortunately). I would not want to be honest.
That car seemed really to struggle for grip the traction control was probably working hard.A fortunate PH'er had a thread about an 812 Superfast the other day and many posters said how a switchable exhaust should be added - providing this video clip:
I have posted that I should hand in a PH card, but I find that ^^^ nothing more than a point and squirt drive (ironically probably better delivered by a EV these days !).
I can't get excited at the thought of driving this level of power car (fortunately). I would not want to be honest.
I don’t see why that would be fun on the road (or the track for that matter) it seems unbalanced.
Sounds good though, although only in small doses.
Slippydiff99 said:
That car seemed really to struggle for grip the traction control was probably working hard.
I don’t see why that would be fun on the road (or the track for that matter) it seems unbalanced.
Sounds good though, although only in small doses.
username checks.I don’t see why that would be fun on the road (or the track for that matter) it seems unbalanced.
Sounds good though, although only in small doses.
My point was that seemed a nice fun country road - or would be in an A110 or similar - but there is no ability to make the Fez flow. Point / squirt.
If you can't hook it up and make a fast smooth progress, is the car as we see them becoming, rather a nonsense ?
PushedDover said:
My take on the state of arms race in cars these days too.
A fortunate PH'er had a thread about an 812 Superfast the other day and many posters said how a switchable exhaust should be added - providing this video clip:
I have posted that I should hand in a PH card, but I find that ^^^ nothing more than a point and squirt drive (ironically probably better delivered by a EV these days !).
I can't get excited at the thought of driving this level of power car (fortunately). I would not want to be honest.
That would be fun for about five minutes, and increasingly annoying thereafter.A fortunate PH'er had a thread about an 812 Superfast the other day and many posters said how a switchable exhaust should be added - providing this video clip:
I have posted that I should hand in a PH card, but I find that ^^^ nothing more than a point and squirt drive (ironically probably better delivered by a EV these days !).
I can't get excited at the thought of driving this level of power car (fortunately). I would not want to be honest.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
trackdemon said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
"Now for the moment you've all been waiting for: Horsepower and torque affect acceleration because, well, they make the car accelerate. In terms of acceleration, torque plays a bigger role in how quickly your car accelerates. That's because the torque is a result of the force the pistons generate and at what speed"
FWIW a 335d is only very marginally behind an E92 M3, but your point ignores gearing/torque curve which are respectively longer & narrower in any diesel E92 - a car which typically also has a slower acting conventional automatic gearbox compared to a DCT M3. I still expect the T50 to be in the same bracket as an F1 for acceleration barring perhaps launch with advanced TC and superior tyres to when the F1 was figured, then the upper echelons where the F1 will likely have a higher top speed.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
trackdemon said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
Engine torque multiplied by gear ratio divided by wheel radius gives a linear force at the tyre contact patch with the road. Isaac Newton taught us that force equals mass times acceleration, so F=ma gives acceleration "a" as force (which we just calculated) divided by vehicle mass.
In your example of the 330d vs M3, the diesel has lots of low down engine torque but looong gearing because it doesn't rev very high, so the wheel torque is actually less than the high revving M3 with its much shorter gearing.
trackdemon said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
trackdemon said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
roy928tt said:
My take on the relative merits of F1 V T50/T33 rests with Torque per Kilogram.
I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but that's an utterly ridiculous way to judge a car. By that definition you'd definitely prefer a diesel. Ignore the fact it's power than accelerates you and reaches a top speed. Fortunately we have things called gearboxes. I'm not aware of the GMA V12 torque curve being in the public domain, indeed I'm not sure I've ever seen the F1's BMW torque curve. At the time much was made of the instant response of the F1's V12 and it's subsequent effect on the pace of the car, little matter which gear was in use. Whether the GMA V12 can match that will be the test. 3.9 litres plays 6.1 it's going to be a tough ask.
"Now for the moment you've all been waiting for: Horsepower and torque affect acceleration because, well, they make the car accelerate. In terms of acceleration, torque plays a bigger role in how quickly your car accelerates. That's because the torque is a result of the force the pistons generate and at what speed"
FWIW a 335d is only very marginally behind an E92 M3, but your point ignores gearing/torque curve which are respectively longer & narrower in any diesel E92 - a car which typically also has a slower acting conventional automatic gearbox compared to a DCT M3. I still expect the T50 to be in the same bracket as an F1 for acceleration barring perhaps launch with advanced TC and superior tyres to when the F1 was figured, then the upper echelons where the F1 will likely have a higher top speed.
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