Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
PAUL.S. said:
Love all the vids being put out by GMA but why do the people who write the scripts insist on referencing the reproductions in his collection as if they were the original.
It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
The intro says it is a new car.It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
The caption definitely does not:
Obviously a pedant might argue the caption reflects the “model type” but even so I agree with those who are a touch put out by this.
Meanwhile the intro rather suggests the rights to this vehicle would not have naturally belonged to Murray, perhaps calling into question any right to describe this as anything other than a replica.
Murray has a fine CV. But he - or his henchpeople - seem rather determined to airbrush it a touch to fit a broader narrative. It does appear to be working for him, however
Yep,quite true, payment was made for services rendered, ownership of the design is probably really still with the De Cadenet estate I imagine.
Also rather distasteful to plonk a "cease and desist" on Steve Nicolls the night of the book unveiling of the MP4/4 at Brooklands, another corporate move to try to hide the actual facts.
Not a leg to stand on given how many ex Mclaren people came out to defend Nicolls (and others) detailed involvement in that design, so nothing became of it.
I imagine Bernie must have allowed him to make that BT44 clone though? not a person to pull the wool over!
Also rather distasteful to plonk a "cease and desist" on Steve Nicolls the night of the book unveiling of the MP4/4 at Brooklands, another corporate move to try to hide the actual facts.
Not a leg to stand on given how many ex Mclaren people came out to defend Nicolls (and others) detailed involvement in that design, so nothing became of it.
I imagine Bernie must have allowed him to make that BT44 clone though? not a person to pull the wool over!
Again true, although there will then probably be a claim that Newey was really a prodigy of his!
If you are going to build a copy then surely the BT46 fan car is the one to do, I believe Bernie still owns the original 2 and the third chassis was scrapped, so maybe he put his foot down and said he can only copy a lesser earlier car instead. Plenty of old DFVs out there but much harder to track down a flat Alpha, so maybe that was a factor as well.
If you are going to build a copy then surely the BT46 fan car is the one to do, I believe Bernie still owns the original 2 and the third chassis was scrapped, so maybe he put his foot down and said he can only copy a lesser earlier car instead. Plenty of old DFVs out there but much harder to track down a flat Alpha, so maybe that was a factor as well.
Edited by PAUL.S. on Saturday 12th August 10:42
PAUL.S. said:
flemke said:
PAUL.S. said:
Love all the vids being put out by GMA but why do the people who write the scripts insist on referencing the reproductions in his collection as if they were the original.
It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
Do they actually use the word 'continuation'? It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
I did not know that there could be a continuation of a one-off! More like a reproduction or replica.
"Continuation" of the model seems a fair way to describe such, Jaguar etc seem to hang their hat on that word, however this one is made to look exactly like the first, so maybe it is a replica of the original one, based on a continuation of that T spec, albeit 50 years later!
The two people mentioned in the nostalgic manner though had nothing to do with this particular example, so why did the producers feel the need to ladle that on in the vid, keep it factual is best and simply say it was a homage to them as well.
F1natic said:
Since the thread is going in this direction sounds like an ideal opportunity to reflect on Chris' abilities. I would appreciate any tales of his mechanical exploits/adventures while he was on this ball of dirt. I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I love his work.
Chris Craft?flemke said:
PAUL.S. said:
flemke said:
PAUL.S. said:
Love all the vids being put out by GMA but why do the people who write the scripts insist on referencing the reproductions in his collection as if they were the original.
It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
Do they actually use the word 'continuation'? It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
I did not know that there could be a continuation of a one-off! More like a reproduction or replica.
"Continuation" of the model seems a fair way to describe such, Jaguar etc seem to hang their hat on that word, however this one is made to look exactly like the first, so maybe it is a replica of the original one, based on a continuation of that T spec, albeit 50 years later!
The two people mentioned in the nostalgic manner though had nothing to do with this particular example, so why did the producers feel the need to ladle that on in the vid, keep it factual is best and simply say it was a homage to them as well.
flemke said:
Chris Craft?
Yes, I have been looking but not found any autobiography written by him, only the Light Car Company Rocket book seems to come up in my searches. Cars are usually built by teams of people and often the lead designer gets the kudos but the spanner spinners often solve the intricate details that the designers might gloss over. Having worked with none of them I couldn't say, but I was hoping for some insight into the way Chris approached engineering problems. This link to a prior section of this very thread is the type of tale I find brilliant;https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Edited by F1natic on Saturday 12th August 12:09
PAUL.S. said:
flemke said:
PAUL.S. said:
flemke said:
PAUL.S. said:
Love all the vids being put out by GMA but why do the people who write the scripts insist on referencing the reproductions in his collection as if they were the original.
It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
Do they actually use the word 'continuation'? It is acknowledged in the written intro (in very small writing!) that the car shown is a continuation, GM when asked in interviews always confirms such, however the opening Line Dario then says "this is a very important car to Gordon" when it is in fact a facsimile, the original example which did all those things is still very much alive and kicking.
GM openly stated he did not want to pay the asking price of that original car when it was offered for sale a while back, and said he could build another much cheaper, which they then did.
I know it's probably some media type behind it, and those that know, know, but people new to such cars are potentially being misinformed and then unwittingly pass along that misinformation to others.
I have no issue with continuation, reproduction, facsimiles, in fact I am building such a car of another marque, however those that do love to jump up and down and label them "fake" as a result when something is misrepresented in such a manner
I did not know that there could be a continuation of a one-off! More like a reproduction or replica.
"Continuation" of the model seems a fair way to describe such, Jaguar etc seem to hang their hat on that word, however this one is made to look exactly like the first, so maybe it is a replica of the original one, based on a continuation of that T spec, albeit 50 years later!
The two people mentioned in the nostalgic manner though had nothing to do with this particular example, so why did the producers feel the need to ladle that on in the vid, keep it factual is best and simply say it was a homage to them as well.
It also included a trove of B&W photos from inside and just outside the mews garage taken when the car was being built. The mechanics were in some of them. Chris and Gordon told me their names, but I cannot recall them now.
After Chris died, I thought the right thing was for Chris's widow Jill and their son Luke to have those mementos, so I gave them all of them.
PAUL.S. said:
Being an ex owner of the original, do you know who actually built it in the 70s? or any of these subsequent copies in his collection, as I doubt GMA have the old school facilities, labour or skills to fabricate such things. Mainly an assembly shop, putting together kits of components made from a large number of specialist subcontractors.
The cars in period were built in that way, with specialist companies manufacturing components. In house built components varied significantly depending on the finance and facilities available to each team. It's the most cost effective and timely way to do it.F1natic said:
flemke said:
Chris Craft?
Yes, I have been looking but not found any autobiography written by him, only the Light Car Company Rocket book seems to come up in my searches. Cars are usually built by teams of people and often the lead designer gets the kudos but the spanner spinners often solve the intricate details that the designers might gloss over. Having worked with none of them I couldn't say, but I was hoping for some insight into the way Chris approached engineering problems. This link to a prior section of this very thread is the type of tale I find brilliant;https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Chris was absolutely one of the coolest people I have ever known. I loved that man. In addition to being a professional racing driver for many years, at other times he was a property developer, operated a couple of fishing trawlers (he came from Cornwall originally), designed furniture, and was a sheep farmer. There was of course the Rocket, and we should not forget the fabulous Vemac: https://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/210...
Whilst he was a successful property developer on the south bank of the Thames in the 1980s, a friend persuaded Chris to become a Lloyds 'name' - easy money, right? Chris took the advice and a year later was wiped out by the rash of hurricane claims in I think '89. He had to start over.
I know many great anecdotes about Chris (and I'm sure I know a small fraction of the possible total). One of my favourites was a perfect example of Chris's dry wit and gift of understatement.
In about 2010, Chris mentioned to me that the week before he and Jill had had Alain de Cadenet over to their house for dinner. De Cad was, shall we say, a bit of a ducker-and-diver. He had loads of charm, but his word was not always 100% reliable.
Back in early 1972, de Cad had asked Chris to be the lead driver in the Duckhams Special that he was building. Chris told de Cad that, before committing, he would need some evidence that the DFV-powered car would be fast enough on the long Mulsanne Straight to be competitive. The only practicable way this low-budget operation could test its Vmax was on a UK motorway. Quite early one morning they went out the M4 to the other side of Reading where there was a fairly long, straight section. Chris got in the car and set off, foot to the floor. When Chris was doing roughly 200 mph along this isolated road, he came over a blind crest to find a milk float tootling along - in the middle lane! Being an exceptionally skillful driver, Chris instantly reacted to take avoiding action and saved the day. At the end of that run, the tach tell-tale indicated that the car would be fast enough, as indeed it proved to be in the race itself.
So anyway, at this 2010 dinner at Chris's house, de Cad had brought along his latest girlfriend, several decades younger than himself and quite a looker. At one point during dinner, as the boys were swapping stories about the good old days, de Cad tried to impress the girlfriend by telling her the story of the M4 Vmax run and the milk float. The only thing was, he made out that he, de Cad, had been the one behind the wheel.
Chris listened patiently to this fabrication and then commented, 'That's odd, because I was the one driving the car, and I don't recall that you were sitting on my lap at the time.'
F1natic said:
flemke said:
Chris Craft?
Yes, I have been looking but not found any autobiography written by him, only the Light Car Company Rocket book seems to come up in my searches. Cars are usually built by teams of people and often the lead designer gets the kudos but the spanner spinners often solve the intricate details that the designers might gloss over. Having worked with none of them I couldn't say, but I was hoping for some insight into the way Chris approached engineering problems. This link to a prior section of this very thread is the type of tale I find brilliant;https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Edited by F1natic on Saturday 12th August 12:09
Apart from what Flemke has already said Chris never sat still, there was always a new project on the go, whilst he had success in various businesses he really just did stuff he liked to make a few quid. He started a body repair shop in Woodford Green in the late 60's with his brother (my old man) and lasted one day at it, going to work at the same place everyday just wasn't for him!
To be around him as a child was exciting and intoxicating, a lot of time spent messing around on motocross bikes or somewhere on the water in various boats, even small ships at one point. He truly lived life to the full, didn't suffer fools and was great company with a sharp sense of humour, if you got in a car with him you knew you were in for the ride of your life.
There was never an autobiography, that just wasn't Chris's style really. The Rocket book is worth a read though.
Edited by Rocket. on Monday 14th August 12:18
flemke said:
F1natic said:
flemke said:
Chris Craft?
Yes, I have been looking but not found any autobiography written by him, only the Light Car Company Rocket book seems to come up in my searches. Cars are usually built by teams of people and often the lead designer gets the kudos but the spanner spinners often solve the intricate details that the designers might gloss over. Having worked with none of them I couldn't say, but I was hoping for some insight into the way Chris approached engineering problems. This link to a prior section of this very thread is the type of tale I find brilliant;https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Chris was absolutely one of the coolest people I have ever known. I loved that man. In addition to being a professional racing driver for many years, at other times he was a property developer, operated a couple of fishing trawlers (he came from Cornwall originally), designed furniture, and was a sheep farmer. There was of course the Rocket, and we should not forget the fabulous Vemac: https://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/210...
Whilst he was a successful property developer on the south bank of the Thames in the 1980s, a friend persuaded Chris to become a Lloyds 'name' - easy money, right? Chris took the advice and a year later was wiped out by the rash of hurricane claims in I think '89. He had to start over.
I know many great anecdotes about Chris (and I'm sure I know a small fraction of the possible total). One of my favourites was a perfect example of Chris's dry wit and gift of understatement.
In about 2010, Chris mentioned to me that the week before he and Jill had had Alain de Cadenet over to their house for dinner. De Cad was, shall we say, a bit of a ducker-and-diver. He had loads of charm, but his word was not always 100% reliable.
Back in early 1972, de Cad had asked Chris to be the lead driver in the Duckhams Special that he was building. Chris told de Cad that, before committing, he would need some evidence that the DFV-powered car would be fast enough on the long Mulsanne Straight to be competitive. The only practicable way this low-budget operation could test its Vmax was on a UK motorway. Quite early one morning they went out the M4 to the other side of Reading where there was a fairly long, straight section. Chris got in the car and set off, foot to the floor. When Chris was doing roughly 200 mph along this isolated road, he came over a blind crest to find a milk float tootling along - in the middle lane! Being an exceptionally skillful driver, Chris instantly reacted to take avoiding action and saved the day. At the end of that run, the tach tell-tale indicated that the car would be fast enough, as indeed it proved to be in the race itself.
So anyway, at this 2010 dinner at Chris's house, de Cad had brought along his latest girlfriend, several decades younger than himself and quite a looker. At one point during dinner, as the boys were swapping stories about the good old days, de Cad tried to impress the girlfriend by telling her the story of the M4 Vmax run and the milk float. The only thing was, he made out that he, de Cad, had been the one behind the wheel.
Chris listened patiently to this fabrication and then commented, 'That's odd, because I was the one driving the car, and I don't recall that you were sitting on my lap at the time.'
trackdemon said:
This is the kind of stuff that needs a 'like' button. Or maybe not, because puerile nonsense might ruin it. Either way, brilliant post
Another anecdote that I enjoyed was from early in Chris's racing career when he was a Ford factory driver in touring cars. In Chris's words:'I thought I was good. I reckoned that I was as fast as or faster than any other driver in those cars. Then I was in a race with Jimmy Clark. He was able to do things with his car that I simply couldn't do with mine. I had no idea how he did it, but he was on another level to everyone else'.
He also told me that the fastest competitor he ever came up against on the Nordschleife (this was in prototypes in the '70s) was Arturo Merzario. He said that Merzario used his brakes more often (but more softly) than other drivers did. (Btw, when I was racing there I tried that on a few particular bends and it worked!)
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