Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[Nockenpaul]

flemke said:

I think the change in the rear wishbones was not to beef up the cross-section but rather to increase the distance between the bores, making the angle at the outboard end of the triangle less acute:

Ah, so that's how they ultimately solved the wishbone problems. Besides the longer base, the mounting eyes in the racing wishbones have different orientation. Both necessitate a new mounting arrangement to the gearbox, seen above. Maybe this is what Stevens was talking about although I can't see how this 'subframe' (mounts, really) is supposed to stiffen up the chassis.

(edited for clearer wording)

Edited by Nockenpaul on Saturday 24th October 09:50

[Nockenpaul]

How stupid of me, looking at the picture again there are two light colored diagonal braces running from close to where wishbones mount to up to the spars of the chassis, exactly what Peter Stevens described.

[stevesingo]

flemke said:

Interesting that the horizontal brace is omitted from the race car as is the gold.

[CraigyMc]

stevesingo said:

flemke said:

Interesting that the horizontal brace is omitted from the race car as is the gold.

Unless my eyes deceive me, it looks like the gold is still present on the firewall.

[Nockenpaul]

stevesingo said:

Interesting that the horizontal brace is omitted from the race car as is the gold.

Either omitted or just temporarily removed, but it sure looks like the former. In the road car, the shock towers are in the ends of the horizontal brace. In the race car, it looks like the exhaust intrudes in their space. Where are they mounted, then? Further outboard, so as not to be seen from the engine bay?

There are more questions. Prompted by the nice picture of the racing car's arrangement above, I was trying to find out how the engine-gearbox unit is mounted in a road car. Steve Randle's IMECHE paper mentions links running from the wheelarches to the gearbox with a virtual intersection point in the rear suspension's roll center, so very much like what you can see in the race car. For the love of me, though, I can't see where those links would mount to the road car's gearbox, nor are they visible in any engine bay picture I've seen. The engine must be supported somehow at the back, but how?



I realise that this stuff is anorak level 3000, normal programming (Mosley, Ferrari bashing, etc.) shall resume soon.

[flemke]

Nockenpaul said:

stevesingo said:

Interesting that the horizontal brace is omitted from the race car as is the gold.

Either omitted or just temporarily removed, but it sure looks like the former. In the road car, the shock towers are in the ends of the horizontal brace. In the race car, it looks like the exhaust intrudes in their space. Where are they mounted, then? Further outboard, so as not to be seen from the engine bay?

There are more questions. Prompted by the nice picture of the racing car's arrangement above, I was trying to find out how the engine-gearbox unit is mounted in a road car. Steve Randle's IMECHE paper mentions links running from the wheelarches to the gearbox with a virtual intersection point in the rear suspension's roll center, so very much like what you can see in the race car. For the love of me, though, I can't see where those links would mount to the road car's gearbox, nor are they visible in any engine bay picture I've seen. The engine must be supported somehow at the back, but how?



I realise that this stuff is anorak level 3000, normal programming (Mosley, Ferrari bashing, etc.) shall resume soon.

Doesn't this look like a trapezoid link?

[Nockenpaul]

flemke said:

Doesn't this look like a trapezoid link?

That's it!

Carry on... ;-)

[F1GTRUeno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URIzYquArAE

Been a whle snce I watched any part of this. Still makes me feel like I dld when I was a small boy.

That sound...

[vincegail]

Just received my copy of "The Light Car Company - The Singular Vision of Two Men" by Clive Neville.
Only flicked through it for the moment, but it looks wonderful. Big, heavy book, 301 pages with an abundance of very pretty pictures, and seems to contain all the information you want to know on the LCC Rocket, and then some! Must be on par with "Driving Ambition", next to which the LCC Rocket book will reside in the bookcase. Very happy with it! 76 quid (incl. P+P to Belgium) well spent

[CanAm]

"The Light Car Company - The Singular Vision of Two Men" by Clive Neville.
Big, heavy book, 301 pages

Rather ironic.

[hurstg01]

Cheers, found it for a discounted amount (£4 off 😂) and its en route to me

[marine boy]

Flemke, I hope you are well and COVID free

I was surprised to recently read the designer Luc Donkerwolke who penned your favorite Audi A2 also penned the Lamborghini Gallardo

As you've a good eye for design I was wondering what your thoughts are on the look of the 1st generation of Gallardo and how different body and wheel color's changes the look

It's not a car that's been on my radar but the more I look at it the more I think it's a very pleasing, unfussy, clean shape, especially the side view, rear end I'm not so sure about

The shape is the polar opposite of today's super cars especially from McLaren which look like they've all had a good kicking from a Nike sports shoe while in the wind tunnel

[ArgonautX]

I'm not flemke, but I like the Gallardo a lot.
The best atribute of the design is that it is very compact. Also very light car RWD versions can weight less then 1400 kg. Couple that with a NA V10 and the availability of the 6sp manual and it's a cracking car.

The earlier 5.0 litre can be made to sound like a Carrera GT quite easily, since it has the same firing order of a 72 deg V10, while the latter 5.2 got a different firing order more akin to a (2x) 5 cylinder.

[flemke]

marine boy said:

Flemke, I hope you are well and COVID free

I was surprised to recently read the designer Luc Donkerwolke who penned your favorite Audi A2 also penned the Lamborghini Gallardo

As you've a good eye for design I was wondering what your thoughts are on the look of the 1st generation of Gallardo and how different body and wheel color's changes the look

It's not a car that's been on my radar but the more I look at it the more I think it's a very pleasing, unfussy, clean shape, especially the side view, rear end I'm not so sure about

The shape is the polar opposite of today's super cars especially from McLaren which look like they've all had a good kicking from a Nike sports shoe while in the wind tunnel

The first generation Gallardo was a handsome car, and the first gen Murcielago, also designed by Donckerwolke, even nicer. I think they are under-appreciated in part because Lamborghini couldn't help themselves and insisted in offering the cars mostly in terrible paint colours. The company did not seem to grasp that in-your-face, wide-boy colours don't work on cars with subtle, elegant shapes and proportions. Funnily enough, the Murci and Gallardo colours would work better on A2s than they do on the Lambos.
After the first version of both cars, Lambo started adding wings, changing the shape of intakes, and just trying too hard, as carmakers often do.

[Caddyshack]

flemke said:

marine boy said:

Flemke, I hope you are well and COVID free

I was surprised to recently read the designer Luc Donkerwolke who penned your favorite Audi A2 also penned the Lamborghini Gallardo

As you've a good eye for design I was wondering what your thoughts are on the look of the 1st generation of Gallardo and how different body and wheel color's changes the look

It's not a car that's been on my radar but the more I look at it the more I think it's a very pleasing, unfussy, clean shape, especially the side view, rear end I'm not so sure about

The shape is the polar opposite of today's super cars especially from McLaren which look like they've all had a good kicking from a Nike sports shoe while in the wind tunnel

The first generation Gallardo was a handsome car, and the first gen Murcielago, also designed by Donckerwolke, even nicer. I think they are under-appreciated in part because Lamborghini couldn't help themselves and insisted in offering the cars mostly in terrible paint colours. The company did not seem to grasp that in-your-face, wide-boy colours don't work on cars with subtle, elegant shapes and proportions. Funnily enough, the Murci and Gallardo colours would work better on A2s than they do on the Lambos.
After the first version of both cars, Lambo started adding wings, changing the shape of intakes, and just trying too hard, as carmakers often do.

Totally agree, 1st gen gallardo spider in a metallic grey is stunning. I do like the murci in a viper green though.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

I think the original Murci is one of the greatest looking Lambos ever made, if not THE, save perhaps the Miura.

[flemke]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I think the original Murci is one of the greatest looking Lambos ever made, if not THE, save perhaps the Miura.

Agreed. The Miura is probably the better looking of the two. On the other hand, when the Murci was driven at 150 mph, at least its front tyres did not lift off the ground.

[hondafanatic]

flemke said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I think the original Murci is one of the greatest looking Lambos ever made, if not THE, save perhaps the Miura.

...at least its front tyres did not lift off the ground.

[dodgy Italian accent] eeeed gives the car charrrracter [/dodgy Italian accent]

[ArgonautX]

I think I still prefer the Diablo over Murcielago. Especially from the rear.
Murcielago is, in fact, a slightly improved Diablo underneath. There was an internal Lambo project that started before Audi bought the company and was meant to replace Diablo, which I think had potential to be quite a nice car with some design tweaks. Ferdinand Piech hated it, so it was cancelled for the Diablo redesign that became the Murcielago.

[Silver Smudger]

ArgonautX said:

...There was an internal Lambo project that started before Audi bought the company and was meant to replace Diablo,.... it was cancelled ...

Is that the one that became the Cizeta Moroder, or was that earlier?