Is the diesel backlash about to start?
Discussion
I notice you mention 4 pot diesels in town. My town car is a three pot 1.4 VAG. Great in traffic as in third you can go from low speed to around 30 . Not too fast at take away ,unless you raise the revs before engage the clutch, as more than a few boy racers found to their cost. 50 ish MPG around the town .I've never seen clouds of smoke in an MOT place, though it's something I see regularly from the vehicle we all expected to give up our car to use- BUS, and for more, go train spotting at a station when a diesel electric unit takes off.
Out of 25ish cars I think only a few were diesels - company cars from in the late 90s early 00s - never put my own money into a diesel. It amazes me how many people I know who buy diesels for economy and then do 10 miles a day in crawling city traffic. Then get upset expensive bits clog up or go pop.
The other day I was reading MPV reviews, and it was the petrol Toyota that had the best MPG compared to the diesels (I think it was a toyota).
A guy at work has just leased a hybrid diesel - that may be the way forward for diesels if they can get them to run upto 30mpg on electric - no pollution around town.
The other day I was reading MPV reviews, and it was the petrol Toyota that had the best MPG compared to the diesels (I think it was a toyota).
A guy at work has just leased a hybrid diesel - that may be the way forward for diesels if they can get them to run upto 30mpg on electric - no pollution around town.
flatso said:
The neverending petrol vs. diesel.
I remember when I came back to Europe in the mid 00's, having trailed a new S-Klasse for about 50 km at fairly high autobahn speeds, we both got off at the same exit and at the first stoplight I pulled beside him on his right side and lowered my window. I heard the subdued deep diesel rattle (it sounded like a large engine); I had forgotten how refined diesel technology had gotten in Europe, and even though my prejudice told me that a large luxo sedan is no place for such an agrarian powerplant, it somehow sounded right for the purpose. It looked and sounded like a proper autobahn ship, a fast efficient cruiser. Soon after a friend gave me his 535d for a spin and it just blew me away. For long, high speed motorway cruises the large diesel engine is the right tool for the job. Sure a large petrolV8 is great, but having to continually stop for gas is just annoying.
In the city or small commutes a 4-pot diesel is also annoying.
I am looking for a Merc R-Klasse, and the choice boild down to R 350 cdi vs. R500. The vehicle will be used for long distance family cruises. All things considered the 350cdi motor is the better tool for the job.
But the problem for me with the 535d touring I had is it was only 3mpg behind the 545i that I borrowed when mine was in for an idrive update. I remember when I came back to Europe in the mid 00's, having trailed a new S-Klasse for about 50 km at fairly high autobahn speeds, we both got off at the same exit and at the first stoplight I pulled beside him on his right side and lowered my window. I heard the subdued deep diesel rattle (it sounded like a large engine); I had forgotten how refined diesel technology had gotten in Europe, and even though my prejudice told me that a large luxo sedan is no place for such an agrarian powerplant, it somehow sounded right for the purpose. It looked and sounded like a proper autobahn ship, a fast efficient cruiser. Soon after a friend gave me his 535d for a spin and it just blew me away. For long, high speed motorway cruises the large diesel engine is the right tool for the job. Sure a large petrolV8 is great, but having to continually stop for gas is just annoying.
In the city or small commutes a 4-pot diesel is also annoying.
I am looking for a Merc R-Klasse, and the choice boild down to R 350 cdi vs. R500. The vehicle will be used for long distance family cruises. All things considered the 350cdi motor is the better tool for the job.
I used to average 27mpg in the 535d sport touring, that was all over Europe and doing 30k miles a year.
The 545i was averaging 24mpg.
On a run the 535d averaged 35mpg but the 545i was still showing 31mpg.
We have an ML350cdi and that is showing 25.1 over the last 12k miles since the last reset, but again the ML500 we had for a couple of days was showing 22mpg over the last 5000 miles and that was a demo car.
I think diesel is great, but really you need something like a 520d auto, something you can get a genuine 45mpg from all day every day.
Big diesels make far less sense to me. I looked at a 530d sport touring yesterday, 11 plate with only 17k miles on it. The OBC was showing 27mpg over the long term.
How much further would the 530i or 535i be behind?
I know many say they get 40mpg, but they would get 30+ in the petrol.
This is a bit of a conundrum for me now too. I need a bigger car, but I've put it off for a while as we find our feet in a new home.
My current diesel is great, I was doing around 15-16k per year. Now we are looking to move closer to where I work and my Mrs now drives, so if we ever go out at weekends I get her to drive. My annual mileage is going to fall to more like 12k.
That's right on the tipping-point of where the additional purchase and servicing cost of a diesel starts to make sense over a petrol.
Still not sure what to do, I was dead-set on getting a 320d or an A4 TDi (budget of £4k) but now I'm undecided...
My current diesel is great, I was doing around 15-16k per year. Now we are looking to move closer to where I work and my Mrs now drives, so if we ever go out at weekends I get her to drive. My annual mileage is going to fall to more like 12k.
That's right on the tipping-point of where the additional purchase and servicing cost of a diesel starts to make sense over a petrol.
Still not sure what to do, I was dead-set on getting a 320d or an A4 TDi (budget of £4k) but now I'm undecided...
richb77 said:
I could have told you about a backlash, taxes increase, city entrance charges e.t.c. in March.
How...I bought a fecking diesel!
I cant see what they can do thats going to make a big pile of difference quickly.How...I bought a fecking diesel!
Perhaps an extra purchase tax on new diesels?
Fuel Duty increase? Will hit transport companies though.
Tax increase?
Cant see any of it being earth shattering.
daemon said:
richb77 said:
I could have told you about a backlash, taxes increase, city entrance charges e.t.c. in March.
How...I bought a fecking diesel!
I cant see what they can do thats going to make a big pile of difference quickly.How...I bought a fecking diesel!
Perhaps an extra purchase tax on new diesels?
Fuel Duty increase? Will hit transport companies though.
Tax increase?
Cant see any of it being earth shattering.
The government won't do anything that would 'punish' current owners very much. It's about an adjustment at the margins given that the economic argument for diesel cars for most people is already very weak.
It will also be about adjusting attitudes in that diesels have been pushed very hard (including by the motoring press) without any real regard to whether or not a Diesel engine makes sense in the particular car or for the particular buyers driving and needs. It amazes me that almost every single Autocar review bangs on for pages about the diesel and barely mentions the petrol version, even in cars that would make much much more economic sense in petrol form (e.g. city cars).
ORD said:
It will also be about adjusting attitudes in that diesels have been pushed very hard (including by the motoring press) without any real regard to whether or not a Diesel engine makes sense in the particular car or for the particular buyers driving and needs. It amazes me that almost every single Autocar review bangs on for pages about the diesel and barely mentions the petrol version, even in cars that would make much much more economic sense in petrol form (e.g. city cars).
That maybe because, as I've been saying for years, the only tangible difference to the owner is that one will require filling up more than the other. Other than that they're all pretty much of a muchness.heebeegeetee said:
That maybe because, as I've been saying for years, the only tangible difference to the owner is that one will require filling up more than the other. Other than that they're all pretty much of a muchness.
Yeah, but you're wrong for three reasons:(1) Ranges aren't massively different for most cars. More efficient cars get smaller tanks.
I often get 400 miles per tank in my 3.4l NA petrol car because it has a big tank. It goes further than my wife's supermini with a weedy engine because that has a much smaller tank (like a lot of diesels).
(2) Most people do very few miles, so a big range or a small range makes fairly little difference. They will still be filling up about once a week or once every two weeks. Range is a big deal to people who drive hundreds of miles a day, but that is a small section of the population who drive a small selection of cars that are usually designed for this usage (e.g. they have big tanks and are geared for motorway driving).
(3) Most diesels (especially with manual boxes) still drive very differently from an equivalent petrol. I agree that the difference is much smaller when you look at cars that have smallish turbocharged engines and auto boxes.
As for this last point, I think manufacturers have outdone themselves in making petrol cars almost as crap to drive as diesels. If you've ever driven a 116i, you'll know what I mean. Likewise for the 1 litre Focus and any Golf under the GTI.
ORD said:
Yeah, but you're wrong for three reasons:
(1) Ranges aren't massively different for most cars. More efficient cars get smaller tanks.
I often get 400 miles per tank in my 3.4l NA petrol car because it has a big tank. It goes further than my wife's supermini with a weedy engine because that has a much smaller tank (like a lot of diesels).
(2) Most people do very few miles, so a big range or a small range makes fairly little difference. They will still be filling up about once a week or once every two weeks. Range is a big deal to people who drive hundreds of miles a day, but that is a small section of the population who drive a small selection of cars that are usually designed for this usage (e.g. they have big tanks and are geared for motorway driving).
(3) Most diesels (especially with manual boxes) still drive very differently from an equivalent petrol. I agree that the difference is much smaller when you look at cars that have smallish turbocharged engines and auto boxes.
As for this last point, I think manufacturers have outdone themselves in making petrol cars almost as crap to drive as diesels. If you've ever driven a 116i, you'll know what I mean. Likewise for the 1 litre Focus and any Golf under the GTI.
But like for like, same models in petrol and diesel, especially the mundane stuff, the only real and tangible difference between the two is that you'll be filling up one more than the other.(1) Ranges aren't massively different for most cars. More efficient cars get smaller tanks.
I often get 400 miles per tank in my 3.4l NA petrol car because it has a big tank. It goes further than my wife's supermini with a weedy engine because that has a much smaller tank (like a lot of diesels).
(2) Most people do very few miles, so a big range or a small range makes fairly little difference. They will still be filling up about once a week or once every two weeks. Range is a big deal to people who drive hundreds of miles a day, but that is a small section of the population who drive a small selection of cars that are usually designed for this usage (e.g. they have big tanks and are geared for motorway driving).
(3) Most diesels (especially with manual boxes) still drive very differently from an equivalent petrol. I agree that the difference is much smaller when you look at cars that have smallish turbocharged engines and auto boxes.
As for this last point, I think manufacturers have outdone themselves in making petrol cars almost as crap to drive as diesels. If you've ever driven a 116i, you'll know what I mean. Likewise for the 1 litre Focus and any Golf under the GTI.
Therefore, there isn't much reason to recommend the petrols. Up to now that is, it may be changing now.
heebeegeetee said:
But like for like, same models in petrol and diesel, especially the mundane stuff, the only real and tangible difference between the two is that you'll be filling up one more than the other.
Therefore, there isn't much reason to recommend the petrols. Up to now that is, it may be changing now.
Of course not. I can't think of a single reason why someone would buy a petrol over a diesel. Other than the nicer drive, cheaper purchase and maintenance costs, better soundtrack, less crap pumped out the back, etc etc. Therefore, there isn't much reason to recommend the petrols. Up to now that is, it may be changing now.
I think someone earlier in the thread summed it up perfectly - diesels are a tool to do a job. Which is fine, however I would rather do a job and enjoy myself whilst I'm doing it - if this causes me an extra £20 a month in fuel costs over a hateful diesel, then so be it.
I'm getting a diesel again but not by choice, by default. My 4x4 could have come in a 5.7L Hemi V8 which I would have preferred but it is not available here in the UK, we can have the 3.0 CRD V6 diesel or the 6.4L SRT Hemi. Now, I'd like the SRT Hemi but that really is ridiculous MPG in comparison to the diesel and running costs generally much higher so I'll have to be happy with the oil burner. Not that it is a bad one, it is quite good.
Monkeylegend said:
Mr2Mike said:
Monkeylegend said:
I PREFER DIESEL TO PETROL
That's fine, but don't pretend the reasons why you prefer them are anything other than economics (unless you actually get some kind of perverse enjoyment from a diesel starting up). Apart from fuel economy, good petrol engines do everything better.I have already said I am addicted to the smell of diesel.
Captainawesome said:
Monkeylegend said:
Mr2Mike said:
Monkeylegend said:
I PREFER DIESEL TO PETROL
That's fine, but don't pretend the reasons why you prefer them are anything other than economics (unless you actually get some kind of perverse enjoyment from a diesel starting up). Apart from fuel economy, good petrol engines do everything better.I have already said I am addicted to the smell of diesel.
bodhi said:
Of course not. I can't think of a single reason why someone would buy a petrol over a diesel. Other than the nicer drive, cheaper purchase and maintenance costs, better soundtrack, less crap pumped out the back, etc etc.
I think someone earlier in the thread summed it up perfectly - diesels are a tool to do a job. Which is fine, however I would rather do a job and enjoy myself whilst I'm doing it - if this causes me an extra £20 a month in fuel costs over a hateful diesel, then so be it.
I think "the herd" have just got into the mindset that diesels are the better buy because its going to cost them less in fuel. That is definitely changing though - there are people who've had an unexpected large bill with a diesel and have thought "sod this" OR they're tempted by the new small turbo petrol variants for ££££'s less and more showroom appeal.I think someone earlier in the thread summed it up perfectly - diesels are a tool to do a job. Which is fine, however I would rather do a job and enjoy myself whilst I'm doing it - if this causes me an extra £20 a month in fuel costs over a hateful diesel, then so be it.
If there was only £20 a month in it for me, in no way would i be driving a diesel, BUT i'm getting 67mpg on average brim to brim, and doing 24,000 a year, so its still saving me ££££'s per year.
Next time though, again i'll be looking at petrols, hybrids and diesels to see what suits my needs best, but i'm expecting a hybrid to make the most sense by then
Mr2Mike said:
daemon said:
Did you unearth a book of diesel stereotypes and prejudices from the 1980s?
It's hardly a stereotype or prejudice, it's a simple fact. Diesel stinks and when you get it on your hands it takes a lot of scrubbing to get rid of the smell.Secondly, if the pumps are kept clean by the filling station then you simply wont have the problem as you're never in contact with the fuel directly.
One of the filling stations i used to use clearly never bothered cleaning the nozzles and they stank of fuel. So i just never went back there.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff