RE: Audi TT S: Review
Discussion
I was going off this one...
http://www.sportauto.de/einzeltests/audi-tt-rs-s-t...
http://www.sportauto.de/einzeltests/audi-tt-rs-s-t...
scherzkeks said:
The lap video should really amuse you then. You will notice the commentator mention how little understeer the car displays on one of the tracks toughest corners; he even mentions the fact that most cars they test require more steering lock to get through than what the TT did. The key here, of course, is driving it properly.
Ah I see, so you have a review that says it doesn't understeer, this being the "correct" review of course. The 300 others that say it understeers heroically all being incorrect, as they made the mistake of pushing the car too hard I presume?Its a shame people put racing track times down as something important when buying a car. We drive on the roads, for the majority of the cars life? For starters the evo/sub was never developed to go fast around a track. It was developed for rally stages. What are the UK roads more like, where we all drive our cars, a rally stage or a perfect track? The Evo / sub, I bet would be quicker and more fun than a S/RS on the majority of B roads.
PorkRind said:
Its a shame people put racing track times down as something important when buying a car. We drive on the roads, for the majority of the cars life? For starters the evo/sub was never developed to go fast around a track. It was developed for rally stages. What are the UK roads more like, where we all drive our cars, a rally stage or a perfect track? The Evo / sub, I bet would be quicker and more fun than a S/RS on the majority of B roads.
Well I kind of got sucked into the lap time debate as I felt there was some mistruths going around but ultimately my gripe with the TT was just around driver involvement. I genuinely don't care how fast a car can corner if it's doing it in a dull way. I've no doubt a TT RS is very effective at going quickly, it's very fast and has loads of grip, just like Evos and Imprezas but I don't find any of these cars all that involving really. I jacked in my Impreza for an MX5...no doubt the impreza would be quicker on a track but I know what's more fun.T0MMY said:
Well I kind of got sucked into the lap time debate as I felt there was some mistruths going around but ultimately my gripe with the TT was just around driver involvement.
Yeah that was unfortunate, and you're bang on the button Re the tt and its lack of involvement! It seems people just want to go fast in a straight line, the car to work out how to get around the corner without much thought or ability from the driver and to stop without the driver having to put much into it either. The steering in my tt is so damned vague, it steers like a computer game, all binary and weird ! That, and the nanny state we're all moving into because safety is king !Well the majority of buyers don't really want a car that is basically difficult to drive fast. They want ABS, traction control, launch control, stability control, automatic throttle blips on downshifts etc. etc.
I'm not just talking about non-enthusiasts...even a lot of petrol heads on track days seem to like this stuff as it means they have a better chance of putting in a decent lap time. I sometimes wonder if they shouldn't lay a groove down the middle of the track the cars can slot into so we can all go round pulling 5g in the corners whilst sat there reading a paper.
I'm not just talking about non-enthusiasts...even a lot of petrol heads on track days seem to like this stuff as it means they have a better chance of putting in a decent lap time. I sometimes wonder if they shouldn't lay a groove down the middle of the track the cars can slot into so we can all go round pulling 5g in the corners whilst sat there reading a paper.
T0MMY said:
I was going off this one...
http://www.sportauto.de/einzeltests/audi-tt-rs-s-t...
The irony being that scherzkeks has clearly never ventured beyond 7/10ths and is still under instructors' supervision by his own admission. Which is OK, it's just quite bizarre that he keeps lecturing other people who may have far more experience than him but stay humble about it. I am not actually convinced the guy owns a car or is even old enough to drive. Ah, the power of the internet.http://www.sportauto.de/einzeltests/audi-tt-rs-s-t...
scherzkeks said:
The lap video should really amuse you then. You will notice the commentator mention how little understeer the car displays on one of the tracks toughest corners; he even mentions the fact that most cars they test require more steering lock to get through than what the TT did. The key here, of course, is driving it properly.
Ah I see, so you have a review that says it doesn't understeer, this being the "correct" review of course. The 300 others that say it understeers heroically all being incorrect, as they made the mistake of pushing the car too hard I presume?I do recall him having some very funny ideas about how to drive fast. To be fair though, the Audi comments that lead to these arguments are based on how the cars behave when driven in a way that he doesn't do so I can see why he doesn't agree.
As long as you don't push them too hard they're fine but then that's true of most modern cars, even my diesel Astra Sport Tourer
As long as you don't push them too hard they're fine but then that's true of most modern cars, even my diesel Astra Sport Tourer
Edited by T0MMY on Friday 12th September 18:08
T0MMY said:
I do recall him having some very funny ideas about how to drive fast.
I know. It was quite a funny thread... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...Including this
scherzkeks said:
I have had a fair amount of track time in an 8P with an excellent instructor.
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 12th September 18:13
Oh god...don't remind me
Those arguments are so frustrating when someone is just completely wrong but totally unable or unwilling to see it.
The general gist as I recall was it doesn't matter how the car handles on the limit of grip because if you get there, you're going too fast. The key to fast lap times apparently is to drive slower than the car is capable of going round any given corner; definitely don't try to drive the car on the edge. In that case one wonders what exactly separates the top F1 drivers from anyone else? I'm pretty sure my mum could push her car to 7/10ths if she was so inclined.
I think I pointed out that if you have not yet got to the point where the car is starting to want to let go at either end then by definition, you could have gone faster. I think that fell on deaf ears.
Those arguments are so frustrating when someone is just completely wrong but totally unable or unwilling to see it. The general gist as I recall was it doesn't matter how the car handles on the limit of grip because if you get there, you're going too fast. The key to fast lap times apparently is to drive slower than the car is capable of going round any given corner; definitely don't try to drive the car on the edge. In that case one wonders what exactly separates the top F1 drivers from anyone else? I'm pretty sure my mum could push her car to 7/10ths if she was so inclined.
I think I pointed out that if you have not yet got to the point where the car is starting to want to let go at either end then by definition, you could have gone faster. I think that fell on deaf ears.
Edited by T0MMY on Friday 12th September 18:56
Or...
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
Mario Andretti (another American, the irony).
But not doubt scherzkeks will tell us the guy doesn't know what he is talking about, like Dale Lomas is a child or Chris Harris can't drive etc etc
It's like the world vs scherzkeks
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
Mario Andretti (another American, the irony).
But not doubt scherzkeks will tell us the guy doesn't know what he is talking about, like Dale Lomas is a child or Chris Harris can't drive etc etc
It's like the world vs scherzkeks
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 12th September 23:56
T0MMY said:
Ah I see, so you have a review that says it doesn't understeer, this being the "correct" review of course. The 300 others that say it understeers heroically all being incorrect, as they made the mistake of pushing the car too hard I presume?
I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head.However, I think it's time to clarify that there are actually two main arguments put forwards by those who dislike the TT / think it could & should be better. The first is that it's not as fast as it should be & as the competition. The second is that it's not as good to drive or enjoyable as it should be & as the competition. As for reasons, there is some crossover (the AWD system, for example) but obviously not a complete overlap. That explains how many cars are slower yet more involving.
The reason some of us are so vociferous with our criticism is that there's actually a lot to like and we know that when they make the effort, the folks at Audi have shown themselves capable of making brilliant cars.
T0MMY said:
I do recall him having some very funny ideas about how to drive fast. To be fair though, the Audi comments that lead to these arguments are based on how the cars behave when driven in a way that he doesn't do so I can see why he doesn't agree.
As long as you don't push them too hard they're fine but then that's true of most modern cars, even my diesel Astra Sport Tourer
As long as you don't push them too hard they're fine but then that's true of most modern cars, even my diesel Astra Sport Tourer
Edited by T0MMY on Friday 12th September 18:08
In that thread, it's still comical to go back and read the PH Driving God club claims that an oversteery chassis is faster than one tuned for slight understeer. Excessive yaw moments are inefficient and slow. 
scherzkeks said:
In that thread, it's still comical to go back and read the PH Driving God club claims that an oversteery chassis is faster than one tuned for slight understeer. Excessive yaw moments are inefficient and slow. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff