RE: Lotus Elise S Cup: Review
Discussion
walm said:
chelme said:
I said Mazda is a RELATIVELY small company, that is relative to other giants. The same could be said of Subaru.
You said it in a rant about Lotus comparing them to Porsche in a sentence that mentions them both and Alfa.Nothing to do with the mass market giants.
Nice back-track.
chelme said:
You say 'Perhaps back in the 60s Lotus and Porsche were similarly sized' Yep, that was my point. They took different routes, one became a success, the other is failing.
If that was your point, why mention Bahar and the Elise?That's MY point.
Lotus can't compete with Porsche NOW and it couldn't when it introduced the Elise.
Your whole rant about Lotus failing to evolve the Elise and blowing £500m is completely irrelevant.
The damage was done decades AGO not in the last decade. Something you completely failed to mention until I called you out for talking b0ll0cks.
And of course, other analysts getting it wrong for British Leyland, Jaguar and the failed VW bid clearly makes my point invalid.
Perhaps if I had been involved in those deals you might have a point.
(Turns out I was actually on the other side of the VW debacle and STILL lost money... dammit.)
I was actually referring to the trouble they were in pre-Boxster and pre-Cayenne.
Now you are making a new and different point about brand value.
The strength of the Porsche brand just reinforces my point that the barriers to entry into the Auto market are HUGE for tiny English firms precisely because they have a far weaker brand - and most of that is to do with decades of investment by the larger companies who can afford to do it given their existing scale.
I am biased but I think Lotus have done an incredible job of producing cars that are exciting to drive and while not having anything like the build quality of a scale OEM, they are impressive nonetheless.
Honestly, demanding new models from Lotus every couple of years is like giving your corner-shop grief for not rolling out 1,000 stores and competing with Tesco.
This guy estimates it costs a cheeky $6bn to develop a new car from scratch.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cos...
You are simply asking the impossible!
I actually think neither you, nor I are wrong entirely. There is always going to be tension between the team of people, i.e. the engineers who wish to produce something extraordinary with engineering integrity (which is costly but has real potential for attracting new customers), and the group of number crunchers who wish to keep costs down.
In none of my posts have I suggested a new model every two years.
What I am all for is for lotus to instill more brand value into its products by working on its engines, among other things, whilst you are saying that there is insufficient money for Lotus to do anyhting genuinely new. Well, for your information, Lotus is rumored to debut a new Evora at this years Geneva Motorshow with a 'bespoked' engine producing 400bhp. This casts some doubt as to what you say...
Why does every new car thread about Lotus have to turn into the same old discussion about the company and its future.
f
k that. The latest Elise is a stunning car and IMO so much more desirable than any Boxster or Cayman. The useable hardcore track car - something that does not seem to be available from many other manufacturers for sub £100k.
Well done Lotus - it would be my one car to do it all.
f
k that. The latest Elise is a stunning car and IMO so much more desirable than any Boxster or Cayman. The useable hardcore track car - something that does not seem to be available from many other manufacturers for sub £100k.Well done Lotus - it would be my one car to do it all.
I wish Lotus could put a lightweight dual clutch or paddle shift sequential single clutch gearbox in their cars. Not only would they probably sell more, but then I might actually be able to use one! And for those that say why can't I use one now, I literally don't have enough limbs to safely drive a manual.
Sadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
Sadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
leglessAlex said:
I wish Lotus could put a lightweight dual clutch or paddle shift sequential single clutch gearbox in their cars. Not only would they probably sell more, but then I might actually be able to use one! And for those that say why can't I use one now, I literally don't have enough limbs to safely drive a manual.
Sadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
And a Hartley V8. 95kg dressed, 10,000rpm, 400bhp http://youtu.be/SOyb04FVxhsSadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
I've always wanted a project to fit that engine to. The Elise would be ideal.
Richard-G said:
milesr3 said:
Richard-G said:
Driving a lower power Elise round a tight twisty track like curborough is perhaps the most fun you'll have, the steering is actually a joyous thing to use on an Elise, on a 4c its a leash you need to hold on tight too when it tries to kill you under brakeing and when it discovers road camber.
Interesting to see a first-hand comparison between the simple, pared back elise CR and 4c. It's a shame that people are so quick to dismiss the 1.6 as being 'dog slow', completely missing the point regarding driver engagement and providing a tool to learn to drive properly. I can see why they don't sell thousands of them but they should sell a lot more. In essence its probably the car that would've been championed on old pistonheads before people that fascinate over interior materials and turbocharged diesels arrived. They see an N/A 1.6 and dismiss it as slow before even driving it. I think in one thread about the Club racer at launch one guy even commented that the steering wheel looked 'old'. In a market with enthusiasts like that then were all doomed.
Fast forward 6 years however and the 1.6 looks increasingly tempting as a frugal, fun car for summer/weekends/commuting across the Lincolnshire Wolds on nice days. The lease packages (low payments/strong residuals) make the car quite affordable. I now have a double garage for storage and the Toyota engine/6 speed box will address the main issues I had with the car. I also understand that build quality is much improved on the S3 model (something to do with input from ex-Porsche engineers?).
Regarding the Alfa 4c, I quite like some Alfa Romeos (159, 156, Spyder, GTV) and I do like the look of the 4c, but I saw one at the NEC classic car show and my wife thought that it looked too big and far too bloated and much preferred the Elise in comparison. After a while I could see her point. I am hoping that her like (she only drove it twice but loved it) of the last Elise may mean that a new Elise might be on the cards!
It is also interesting to see your comments about the TRD airbox and aftermarket exhaust. Which exhaust would you recommend? I have heard good things about the 2tubular systems from Scotland, though at a price!
Alex P said:
Richard-G said:
milesr3 said:
Richard-G said:
Driving a lower power Elise round a tight twisty track like curborough is perhaps the most fun you'll have, the steering is actually a joyous thing to use on an Elise, on a 4c its a leash you need to hold on tight too when it tries to kill you under brakeing and when it discovers road camber.
Interesting to see a first-hand comparison between the simple, pared back elise CR and 4c. It's a shame that people are so quick to dismiss the 1.6 as being 'dog slow', completely missing the point regarding driver engagement and providing a tool to learn to drive properly. I can see why they don't sell thousands of them but they should sell a lot more. In essence its probably the car that would've been championed on old pistonheads before people that fascinate over interior materials and turbocharged diesels arrived. They see an N/A 1.6 and dismiss it as slow before even driving it. I think in one thread about the Club racer at launch one guy even commented that the steering wheel looked 'old'. In a market with enthusiasts like that then were all doomed.
Fast forward 6 years however and the 1.6 looks increasingly tempting as a frugal, fun car for summer/weekends/commuting across the Lincolnshire Wolds on nice days. The lease packages (low payments/strong residuals) make the car quite affordable. I now have a double garage for storage and the Toyota engine/6 speed box will address the main issues I had with the car. I also understand that build quality is much improved on the S3 model (something to do with input from ex-Porsche engineers?).
Regarding the Alfa 4c, I quite like some Alfa Romeos (159, 156, Spyder, GTV) and I do like the look of the 4c, but I saw one at the NEC classic car show and my wife thought that it looked too big and far too bloated and much preferred the Elise in comparison. After a while I could see her point. I am hoping that her like (she only drove it twice but loved it) of the last Elise may mean that a new Elise might be on the cards!
It is also interesting to see your comments about the TRD airbox and aftermarket exhaust. Which exhaust would you recommend? I have heard good things about the 2tubular systems from Scotland, though at a price!
, apart from that everything you need is solid. No squeaks no rattles. Due to the 6spd box the car is apparently faster than the old Toyota 1.8 (134 bhp) round hethel and feels relatively brisk, the engine needs revving during spirited driving but that's why you buy a car like this, fortunately the gearbox is a joy to use, pedals allow perfect heel and toe changes and the power train spins up fast to allow accurate rev matching. MPG wise you will easily get 40's with the odd blat and it only costs £35 to fill!
the engine sounds a lot like the old K series and for a 4 pot sounds great with a trd airbox and exhaust! it will also pop and bang even with the catalyst in place! its uses no oil and service intervals are 10k or per annum.
exhaust wise i had one of these:
http://2bular.co.uk/elise-s-16-1zr-fae/elise-16-1z...
the 7" one, the 6" one would be louder and could be the way to go if you like that sort of thing! The quality is amazing and fitting is pretty easy really, i just got the car up on ramps and took the under tray off. if you live in or around the midlands by all means let me know if you need any help or a bit of guidance.
you will need to change the standard exhaust though, its properly crap.
if you need a dealer, then Aimee at lotus silverstone is fantastic, if a deal can be done she will get it done and they've always got a wide variety of stock to sit in and drive.
leglessAlex said:
I wish Lotus could put a lightweight dual clutch or paddle shift sequential single clutch gearbox in their cars. Not only would they probably sell more, but then I might actually be able to use one! And for those that say why can't I use one now, I literally don't have enough limbs to safely drive a manual.
Sadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
Sadly no doubt it would add too much weight and be far too costly to develop and make. I'm sure it would increase sales (yes, I'm aware it's not quite that straightforward, but still) and a manual would still be the default transmission for the purists.
Sorry to hear about your legs. Lotus offer a slush box, but sadly no properly engaging dual clutch or roboticised manual option. I was chatting about this last night actually - if you make true drivers cars, like the Honda NSX or Lotus Exige, you don't sell many so can't afford to develop things like DCT, bespoke engines etc, but if you sell cars in large numbers, they can't be true drivers cars because that's not what people want. Annoying.Alex P said:
Fast forward 6 years however and the 1.6 looks increasingly tempting as a frugal, fun car for summer/weekends/commuting across the Lincolnshire Wolds on nice days. The lease packages (low payments/strong residuals) make the car quite affordable.
I bought my 1.6 Touring new in 2012 and have done 24K miles in it over the last 3 years. It is everything you say above. I regularly do a 3-4hr 175 mile commute which becomes enjoyable in the summer when you can go the long way home and of course I have something that is enormously engaging to drive at the weekends.Mine has had the newer gear cables fitted which make a big difference to the quality of the gearchange and a pair of new headlights (one failed before the 1,200 mile running in service) under warranty. Build quality is noticeably better than older elises and has improved further since I got mine.
They are relatively expensive to buy new (but not any more in real terms than they used to be and there are discounts to be had) but the excellent residual value more than compensates for this. Mine normally does mid 40s mpg, servicing, road tax, tyres and insurance are all inexpensive.
Mine is completely standard, but one thing I've found that makes a difference is running on super unleaded; livens the engine up no end, as does having a few miles on the clock.
milesr3 said:
Alex P said:
Fast forward 6 years however and the 1.6 looks increasingly tempting as a frugal, fun car for summer/weekends/commuting across the Lincolnshire Wolds on nice days. The lease packages (low payments/strong residuals) make the car quite affordable.
I bought my 1.6 Touring new in 2012 and have done 24K miles in it over the last 3 years. It is everything you say above. I regularly do a 3-4hr 175 mile commute which becomes enjoyable in the summer when you can go the long way home and of course I have something that is enormously engaging to drive at the weekends.Mine has had the newer gear cables fitted which make a big difference to the quality of the gearchange and a pair of new headlights (one failed before the 1,200 mile running in service) under warranty. Build quality is noticeably better than older elises and has improved further since I got mine.
They are relatively expensive to buy new (but not any more in real terms than they used to be and there are discounts to be had) but the excellent residual value more than compensates for this. Mine normally does mid 40s mpg, servicing, road tax, tyres and insurance are all inexpensive.
Mine is completely standard, but one thing I've found that makes a difference is running on super unleaded; livens the engine up no end, as does having a few miles on the clock.
Richard-G said:
+1 on the super unleaded! v power is my choice.
Yes, mine too. It runs and even sounds quite different on it. I do wonder how many mediocre reviews or test drives have been carried out on nearly new cars and 95RON. Mine took at least 3k miles until it would rev out properly and was better still with 10k on it.At some point I may be tempted by a TRD airbox and a different back box. I know of other 1ZR-FAE elise owners who have done so and felt a minor improvement. The real gains come from something like a full 2bular system though and although top quality it's an expensive way to gain ~15hp.
NXXN said:
theturbs said:
Very difficult to identify anything comparable to the Lotus.
- Aluminium tub/lightweight construction (within laws/regulations)
- Mid-engine
- Rear-wheel drive
- Manual transmission
- Double-wishbone suspension front and rear
- Aluminium tub/lightweight construction (within laws/regulations)
- Mid-engine
- Rear-wheel drive
- Manual transmission
- Double-wishbone suspension front and rear
Richard-G and milesr3, many thanks for the useful information about the 1.6 S3. The version I have been keeping an eye on is the 1.6 SE they did last year and there are still a few at dealers in Old English White with black leather sports seats/Lotus crests. The car just looks 'right' IMO. I have contemplated a bright colour/Gulf colour etc but I already have an Electric Orange Focus ST so a bit more subtlety is required this time!
Thanks for the tip regarding Silverstone Lotus. My closest dealers are JCT in Leeds or the Stratton Motor Company in Norfolk. I spoke to Guy Munday(?) there last year and he was very helpful when I made an initial enquiry.
The running costs do seem low but the thing I struggled to reduce last time was insurance. I am hoping that my increased age (now being 35) and the car being garaged will reduce the price but it will be an additional vehicle so I will have to look for an insurers/broker who mirrors NCB. Do you have any suggestions?
Thanks for the tip regarding Silverstone Lotus. My closest dealers are JCT in Leeds or the Stratton Motor Company in Norfolk. I spoke to Guy Munday(?) there last year and he was very helpful when I made an initial enquiry.
The running costs do seem low but the thing I struggled to reduce last time was insurance. I am hoping that my increased age (now being 35) and the car being garaged will reduce the price but it will be an additional vehicle so I will have to look for an insurers/broker who mirrors NCB. Do you have any suggestions?
Interesting points about scale, I was surprised to find that Porsche made over 23 thousand 944s in one year in the early eighties. I don't know the exact figures but from production figures of later 944s and 968s they must have been making getting on for 10,000 cars a year even in their darkest days in the early nineties. So yes it would seem Lotus probably haven't had a scale comparable to Porsche going back more than 30 years.
Some of the comments about improvements in build quality are interesting because this is not even remotely well known, about 10 to 11 years ago I used to get my cars MoTed by a Lotus dealer so I would always pop over and have a look at them. The flimsy cheap plasticky feel was always an instant put off for me and I guess must have been for anyone coming from German cars, the older pre 96 Porsches in particular. I sold a 968 with 160k miles on the clock which had a better condition interior than the 23k miles Pug 207 we bought last year so things like this really do matter to people. Maybe I will pop into Silverstone on the way through and have a poke around.
Some of the comments about improvements in build quality are interesting because this is not even remotely well known, about 10 to 11 years ago I used to get my cars MoTed by a Lotus dealer so I would always pop over and have a look at them. The flimsy cheap plasticky feel was always an instant put off for me and I guess must have been for anyone coming from German cars, the older pre 96 Porsches in particular. I sold a 968 with 160k miles on the clock which had a better condition interior than the 23k miles Pug 207 we bought last year so things like this really do matter to people. Maybe I will pop into Silverstone on the way through and have a poke around.
Claudia Skies said:
NJH said:
The flimsy cheap plasticky feel was always an instant put off for me
I have to say that from my experience of a number of Lotus cars I have NEVER encountered what you describe.There's certainly far less exposed plastic in an Elise cabin than most cars but what there is is pretty shoddy quality.
The sill covers are notorious for scratching and my dashtop pannel has lifted to the point that it's touching the windscreen, making an annoying squeeking noise as it moves. The pannels inside the B-pillars don't fit very well either and one of the air vents has snapped (admittedly where I kicked it repeatedly getting in and out).
I like the simplicity of the interior of the Elise but it's certainly not particularly well made. I'd take the Elise's interior over something really plasticy like a basic Boxster but I'd still rather it was actually put together properly.
The sill covers are notorious for scratching and my dashtop pannel has lifted to the point that it's touching the windscreen, making an annoying squeeking noise as it moves. The pannels inside the B-pillars don't fit very well either and one of the air vents has snapped (admittedly where I kicked it repeatedly getting in and out).
I like the simplicity of the interior of the Elise but it's certainly not particularly well made. I'd take the Elise's interior over something really plasticy like a basic Boxster but I'd still rather it was actually put together properly.
Same here, my S1 does not squeak or rattle. There is some rubbing where the hardtop sits on the rollbar but that's about it.
The fact that the cars are fibreglass will no doubt put off many people used to a metal German car. Of course as we know, the payoff is a car that is up to 500Kg ligher...
The fact that the cars are fibreglass will no doubt put off many people used to a metal German car. Of course as we know, the payoff is a car that is up to 500Kg ligher...
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