Another cyclist dies in London

[will_]

Killboy said:

Drivers stopping in bike boxes should get 6 points on their license. Use CCTV to enforce.

Some of them are already running red lights if they're stopped in bike boxes - 3 points and £100 fine is already the supposed penalty, but it is almost never enforced.

[Digby]

will_ said:

No-one has ever said that cyclists don't do stupid things. But they are not unique in being stupid - other road users are also stupid. As has been said

How many drivers come close to being crushed in London on a daily basis? How many have been crushed over the last few years?

Drivers don't concern me at all. What concerns me are riders such as those in these videos, because there are far too many of them.

[Digby]

Vipers said:

Digby said:

Let's have another example of what you could see a thousand times a day if you were able..

Ah, but hang on, the foreign driver left a foot or so of his wagon in a box junction for a moment. What a total moron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxgUr75eCa4

So many cyclists with a death wish, tards.

Perhaps there is a psychological element to it? To me, that is no different than poking your hand in to a fire. You just know not to do it, yet some clearly want to see how hot it will be.

[will_]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There are zero figures or even estimates for cyclists transgressions at RTL. Due to this it really is not possible to either compare the levels between cyclists and other road users jumping red traffic lights (as an example) or as you do state categorically that motorists do so more than cyclists, those statistics do not exist.

I'm afraid that simply isn't true, albeit that there is not much data available. Of course there would be little point comparing the two as, for example, cyclists have a greater opportunity to run red lights compared to motorists.

TFL have undertaken studies both of cyclists running red-lights, and the percentage of cyclists who suffer from motorised encroachment in ASL areas. One figure is approximately double the other.

[will_]

Digby said:

will_ said:

No-one has ever said that cyclists don't do stupid things. But they are not unique in being stupid - other road users are also stupid. As has been said

How many drivers come close to being crushed in London on a daily basis? How many have been crushed over the last few years?

Drivers don't concern me at all. What concerns me are riders such as those in these videos, because there are far too many of them.

Well they are hardly comparable, because cars are (a) bigger and (b) offer greater protection. Are cars hit by lorries in London? I'm sure they are.

The closer comparison is pedestrians, and plenty of them are killed by trucks on London's roads.

[will_]

Digby said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leW8Mx1GciE

How do you stop this?

If there was a simple answer to this question the thread wouldn't be 400+ pages long.

You will never "stop" bad riding and driving completely. You can reduce or mitigate it by increasing education and enforcement for all road users. You can make changes to road designs and infrastructure to avoid encouraging cyclists into being in those circumstances. You can improve lorry visibility to reduce the chance that, if a cyclist is stupid enough to put themselves in that position, the truck avoids crushing them.

[FiF]

Killboy said:

Drivers stopping in bike boxes should get 6 points on their license. Use CCTV to enforce.

The legal position on this has been covered before.

If you have already crossed the first stop line when the lights change, but can stop before crossing the advance stop line, ie in the bike box, then it's an offence to carry on over the advance stop line. It's not an offence therefore to stop in the bike box. At busy junctions and in very slow moving traffic it's a common issue. Sorry to burst your bubble, it would need a significant change in the law.

[Mave]

Digby said:

Drivers don't concern me at all. What concerns me are riders such as those in these videos, because there are far too many of them.

Maybe they don't concern you because they don't pose a threat to you.
But, the majority of cyclists deaths and serious injuries, both in London and nationally, is not due to passing down the inside of HGVs.

So, if you ignore the mentality of the idiot cyclists for a moment (yes, there are idiot cyclists just as there are idiot motorists), the thing that concerns most cyclists is motorists.

[Digby]

will_ said:

Well they are hardly comparable, because cars are (a) bigger and (b) offer greater protection.

Is there a reason, then, that in a thread where we are reminded often of cycle vs HGV deaths, that any talk of bad cycling in relation to such incidents is almost constantly met with talk of how cars are bad, too?

I agree, they are not comparable, because they are quite safe.

I think the most frustrating factor is that for many riders and riding groups, it's always going to be someone else's problem.

Reading through a link such as this, for example...

https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-br...

Trucks bad, roads are bad, they need to do this, they need to do that, they must do this, they have to do that, restrict, train, train again, change, adapt, alter, get rid of,..they must, they must, they must, they, they, they.....

Oh and if you fancy a bit of cycle training to learn how not do die on a bike, that may be "beneficial"

Just the tiniest comment in a vast ocean of "they must.."

Change the entire world for us, and if (and only IF) we want to, we can try to save ourselves a little bit. If we fancy it. Until then, ride like a if you want.

[Digby]

will_ said:

Digby said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leW8Mx1GciE

How do you stop this?

If there was a simple answer to this question the thread wouldn't be 400+ pages long.

You will never "stop" bad riding and driving completely. You can reduce or mitigate it by increasing education and enforcement for all road users. You can make changes to road designs and infrastructure to avoid encouraging cyclists into being in those circumstances. You can improve lorry visibility to reduce the chance that, if a cyclist is stupid enough to put themselves in that position, the truck avoids crushing them.

Education & enforcement for all roads users?

You can improve lorry visibility. They are. You can change certain roads. They are / have. You can educate lorry drivers with even more training. They do. You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day. Now, about those stupid riders...

If you can tell me how we make the above points work for riders in London, the thread is over for me. You will have solved all my issues. .

[Mave]

Digby said:

You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day.

...whilst not policing significant, dangerous and, in some cases, willful errors by all road users.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mave said:

Digby said:

You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day.

...whilst not policing significant, dangerous and, in some cases, willful errors by all road users.

So, cars/drivers are bad. Yes we know they are, now how do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks ?

Not. ummm really ?

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 21st November 21:43

[Mave]

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

Digby said:

You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day.

...whilst not policing significant, dangerous and, in some cases, willful errors by all road users.

So, cars/drivers are bad. Yes we know they are, now how do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks ?

Not. ummm really ?

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 21st November 21:43

I didn't refer to cars / drivers. I referred to all road users. And one thing I think could make cyclists less likely to be killed by cars and trucks is for DANGEROUS road use to be punished, (not the "smallest of errors" Digby refers to and which he appears to imply is effective in ensuring safe driving.)

[nickfrog]

I think the root cause of anti-cycling prejudice is resistance to change. Some humans hate change and cycling is changing the way we all think, as road users. A small minority gets left behind though, which is a shame.

I said it before, give it 10 years and the Victor Meldrews will have stopped moaning though and cohabitation on the road will be akin to other European cycling cultures.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mave said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

Digby said:

You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day.

...whilst not policing significant, dangerous and, in some cases, willful errors by all road users.

So, cars/drivers are bad. Yes we know they are, now how do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks ?

Not. ummm really ?

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 21st November 21:43

I didn't refer to cars / drivers. I referred to all road users. And one thing I think could make cyclists less likely to be killed by cars and trucks is for DANGEROUS road use to be punished, (not the "smallest of errors" Digby refers to and which he appears to imply is effective in ensuring safe driving.)

OK, everybody else is bad and needs punishing, now do try to answer one direct question..

How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

[Mave]

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

Digby said:

You can fine drivers for even the smallest of errors. They do, every single day.

...whilst not policing significant, dangerous and, in some cases, willful errors by all road users.

So, cars/drivers are bad. Yes we know they are, now how do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks ?

Not. ummm really ?

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 21st November 21:43

I didn't refer to cars / drivers. I referred to all road users. And one thing I think could make cyclists less likely to be killed by cars and trucks is for DANGEROUS road use to be punished, (not the "smallest of errors" Digby refers to and which he appears to imply is effective in ensuring safe driving.)

OK, everybody else is bad and needs punishing, now do try to answer one direct question..

How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

Why don't you read what I posted instead of trying to misrepresent it? I've already answered your question.

[Digby]

nickfrog said:

I think the root cause of anti-cycling prejudice is resistance to change. Some humans hate change and cycling is changing the way we all think, as road users. A small minority gets left behind though, which is a shame.

I think you are overthinking things. We are now in a situation where we have cyclists berating other cyclists. There's your root cause of the majority of problems. Massively Increased fines in cycling Utopias don't come about because a minority do not like change. Using Copenhagen as an example, rather than discuss such issues, the cycle union there found it easier to complain about the fines. But then there is a history of doing just that where cycling is concerned.

In the UK, they even complained that they shouldn't have to have lights all those years ago! Has much changed? Produce an advert warning of the dangers of turning HGVs? Complaints. Warning stickers? Complaints. Cycle lanes? Complaints.

I think the root cause of pro-cycling prejudice is the ability to say "we want this" and to put fingers in ears and go "lalala" if they don't get what they want; all the time whilst ignoring any negative aspects.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mave said:

I've already answered your question.

Not that I can see.

[nickfrog]

Digby said:

I think the root cause of pro-cycling prejudice is the ability to say "we want this" and to put fingers in ears and go "lalala" if they don't get what they want; all the time whilst ignoring any negative aspects.

Not a big issue as it is a minority of people, like the anti-cycling sentiment is an another minority. Reasonable people who can use critical thinking and are not angry are at neither extremes of the spectrum.

[Mave]

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

I've already answered your question.

Not that I can see.

If they need to avoid cars or trucks because they are cycling dangerously then punish them. In the same way cyclists have been punished when there have been RLJ clampdowns.