Another cyclist dies in London

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mave said:

If they need to avoid cars or trucks because they are cycling dangerously then punish them. In the same way cyclists have been punished when there have been RLJ clampdowns.

The question is : How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

So, How do you punish them for riding down the side of a HGV/Bus for example.

Doing so is just stupid, not an offence, so back to the question.

[Digby]

nickfrog said:

Not a big issue as it is a minority of people, like the anti-cycling sentiment is an another minority. Reasonable people who can use critical thinking and are not angry are at neither extremes of the spectrum.

I’m only really interested in those who don’t realise a truck can squash them.

[anonymous-user]

The Dangerous Elk said:

The question is : How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

So, How do you punish them for riding down the side of a HGV/Bus for example.

Doing so is just stupid, not an offence, so back to the question.

Education.

[Mave]

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

If they need to avoid cars or trucks because they are cycling dangerously then punish them. In the same way cyclists have been punished when there have been RLJ clampdowns.

The question is : How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

So, How do you punish them for riding down the side of a HGV/Bus for example.

Doing so is just stupid, not an offence, so back to the question.

I've already answered the question. Twice. I can answer it again with the same answer if you like. Or alternatively, maybe you could tell me which bit of my answer you don't agree with so we can discuss it?

[Mave]

Digby said:

nickfrog said:

Not a big issue as it is a minority of people, like the anti-cycling sentiment is an another minority. Reasonable people who can use critical thinking and are not angry are at neither extremes of the spectrum.

I’m only really interested in those who don’t realise a truck can squash them.

And a significant majority of cyclists, who do realise a truck can squash them, are more interested in the larger numbers of dangers that they are less in control of.

Edited by Mave on Tuesday 21st November 23:25

[anonymous-user]

Digby said:

Produce an advert warning of the dangers of turning HGVs? Complaints. Warning stickers? Complaints.

Dubious. Sources?

Personally I think both of those are good things.

Digby said:

Cycle lanes? Complaints.

Well, for a variety of reasons they can often be pretty poor.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mave said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

If they need to avoid cars or trucks because they are cycling dangerously then punish them. In the same way cyclists have been punished when there have been RLJ clampdowns.

The question is : How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

So, How do you punish them for riding down the side of a HGV/Bus for example.

Doing so is just stupid, not an offence, so back to the question.

I've already answered the question. Twice. I can answer it again with the same answer if you like. Or alternatively, maybe you could tell me which bit of my answer you don't agree with so we can discuss it?

No, you have said punish them, that is not an answer as it cannot be done. You cannot punish legal stupid.

[Mave]

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

Mave said:

If they need to avoid cars or trucks because they are cycling dangerously then punish them. In the same way cyclists have been punished when there have been RLJ clampdowns.

The question is : How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

So, How do you punish them for riding down the side of a HGV/Bus for example.

Doing so is just stupid, not an offence, so back to the question.

I've already answered the question. Twice. I can answer it again with the same answer if you like. Or alternatively, maybe you could tell me which bit of my answer you don't agree with so we can discuss it?

No, you have said punish them, that is not an answer as it cannot be done. You cannot punish legal stupid.

I didn't say punish legal stupid. I said punish dangerous.

Now, what's your proposal?

[Mr Tidy]

The Dangerous Elk said:

No, you have said punish them, that is not an answer as it cannot be done. You cannot punish legal stupid.

Of course you can - isn't that why the M3 got turned into a sh*te motorway? With the M4 to follow?

It's just a shame there are no traffic patrols any more.

[anonymous-user]

One died around West London a few weeks ago. He attempted to outrun a truck but must have been in the blind spot (those areas are massive for trucks). Truck changed lanes and the clean up and investigation took a good four hours. Trucker not charged of course.

We have too many aggressive cyclists by where I live. They will punch or kick your car if you don’t give them way. A few good ones left but mostly bad apples.

I see a question for someone about how to make it better? I propose shock horror a cycling test. Need not be a practical one like a motorcycle one with instructor following... more like a hazard perception one. Make it mandatory. Charge £20 for it. Renew it every 5 years. With more and more cyclists on the roads... they are no different to drivers who identify hazards. You don’t need a license to cycle but you can start with the most powerful tool... education.

Unlike the road fund the revenue should go toward upkeep of cycle lanes and signage. We have signs for most things so why not signs like: busy cycle route.

The council and police could even help with enforcement via cctv. Last week I had a nightmare one mile stretch with a young cyclist refusing to use the cycle lane. He was cycling like a serpent holding up traffic. The ones like that should be fined.

Edited by Super_G on Wednesday 22 November 04:11

[nickfrog]

Digby said:

nickfrog said:

Not a big issue as it is a minority of people, like the anti-cycling sentiment is an another minority. Reasonable people who can use critical thinking and are not angry are at neither extremes of the spectrum.

I’m only really interested in those who don’t realise a truck can squash them.

And here lies the problem with people devoid of critical thinking, they can't have a holistic view of an issue and want to focus on the aspects that confirm their bias and preconceived ideas instead, a process borne out of emotional rather than rational thinking.

[frisbee]

Super_G said:

One died around West London a few weeks ago. He attempted to outrun a truck but must have been in the blind spot (those areas are massive for trucks). Truck changed lanes and the clean up and investigation took a good four hours. Trucker not charged of course.

We have too many aggressive cyclists by where I live. They will punch or kick your car if you don’t give them way. A few good ones left but mostly bad apples.

I see a question for someone about how to make it better? I propose shock horror a cycling test. Need not be a practical one like a motorcycle one with instructor following... more like a hazard perception one. Make it mandatory. Charge £20 for it. Renew it every 5 years. With more and more cyclists on the roads... they are no different to drivers who identify hazards. You don’t need a license to cycle but you can start with the most powerful tool... education.

Unlike the road fund the revenue should go toward upkeep of cycle lanes and signage. We have signs for most things so why not signs like: busy cycle route.

The council and police could even help with enforcement via cctv. Last week I had a nightmare one mile stretch with a young cyclist refusing to use the cycle lane. He was cycling like a serpent holding up traffic. The ones like that should be fined.

Edited by Super_G on Wednesday 22 November 04:11

Cool just what we need, push more of our fatties into cars.

I had a nightmare ride home the other day, I overtook about 500 cars, very few pulled into the curb for a faster vehicle. Education.

[anonymous-user]

Super_G said:

Last week I had a nightmare one mile stretch with a young cyclist refusing to use the cycle lane. He was cycling like a serpent holding up traffic.

Cyclists don't have to use cycle lanes (just like buses don't have to use bus lanes).

Riding "like a serpent" and holding up traffic whether deliberately or not is the hallmark of an attention seeking asshole though, who just happens to be on a bike,

[heebeegeetee]

The Dangerous Elk said:

OK, everybody else is bad and needs punishing, now do try to answer one direct question..

How do YOU think we can make cyclists better at avoiding said cars and trucks.

That was the point of me posting what's going on on motorways - *everybody* drives in blind spots (apart from the perfect drivers on here of course), it's rife. Pedestrians walk into blind spots whenever they can, they continue to walk behind reversing trucks (despite all the beepers and warnings) mothers push pushchairs behind reversing trucks. It's not just a truck thing either, car drivers place themselves unwisely on motorways etc *all the time*, I rarely do a motorway journey without being surprised at the sheer weight of fkwittery out there.

Some years ago on here there was a thread started by someone whose parents had been tipped upside down on a motorway by a foreign truck, and I suggested they'd been driving in the trucks blind spot. Talk about light the blue touch paper! How dare I suggest that the chap's father's driving could have been at fault in any way!

When I tried to point out the danger of lhd trucks someone posted "are you seriously suggesting that we should look for foreign signwriting on trucks?" to which of course I replied, "depends on how much you value your life".

I know all the haters think that cyclists should be treated differently form everbody else, despite them only being the second riskiest road user of the four groups*, but the reality is you'll no more stop cyclists taking risks than you will everybody else.

[nickfrog]

heebeegeetee said:

but the reality is you'll no more stop cyclists taking risks than you will everybody else.

Indeed.

Probably because they are human, like everybody else. How basic is that to grasp ?

If I had to rant on PH every time I see absurd and VERY dangerous motorway driving I would be typing all bloody day.

[Digby]

Start a bad motorway driving thread, then? It has nothing to do with idiots on bikes in London. And what has being beside a lorry in a car on a motorway claiming it’s a blind spot got to do with squashing yourself up the inside of an HGV in London with inches to spare on a bike?

Heebee is easily confused. All the things he said he had to put up with decades ago are now far worse due to their being thousands and thousands more bikes.

It’s comical to me just how deep in to the sand some are willing to push their heads when they don’t like the truth.

Funny how there are also rumblings about fine increases for cyclists in the UK now. Several countries have done the same to try and stop dangerous, careless riding and the breaking of laws.

It’s a problem.

[TroubledSoul]

will_ said:

TroubledSoul said:

will_ said:

It's a bit unfortunate that in the road safety crackdowns the drivers are handed more tickets than the cyclists - makes a nonsense of the claim that "breaking the law" is only a problem with cyclists.

Yeah because it's easy to identify and ticket cyclists, what with their registration plates etc.

Again, you have launched into a cycling thread half-cocked without doing even basic reading (like you did on the thread about Alliston).

The crackdown to which I refer was called Operation Safeway. Do some research and see why your comment regarding registration plates is irrelevant.

What is notable is that it is billed by some as an operation against cyclists, but in fact snared many more drivers - evidencing once again that law breaking on London's roads is not exclusive to cyclists - which shouldn't be a surprise.

Au contraire, as I was talking about enforcement in general and not that specific operation, it is not I who has gone in half-cocked

As for Alliston, I stand by everything I said on that one.

[heebeegeetee]

Digby said:

1. Start a bad motorway driving thread, then? It has nothing to do with idiots on bikes in London. And what has being beside a lorry in a car on a motorway claiming it’s a blind spot got to do with squashing yourself up the inside of an HGV in London with inches to spare on a bike?

2. Heebee is easily confused. All the things he said he had to put up with decades ago are now far worse due to their being thousands and thousands more bikes.

3. It’s comical to me just how deep in to the sand some are willing to push their heads when they don’t like the truth.

4. Funny how there are also rumblings about fine increases for cyclists in the UK now. Several countries have done the same to try and stop dangerous, careless riding and the breaking of laws.

5. It’s a problem.

1. Head in the sand again, I see. The relevance is to illustrate that everybody does it, including those at greater risk than cyclists. they all do it, nationally, locally and in urban situations.

2. The evidence backs me, not you. "There were 44% fewer fatalities in 2016 compared with 2006" https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

and you can be sure that casualty rates in the 1980s would have been on another level again. Despite there being considerably more traffic of all types today, the casualty rate is less, so what is "far worse now" to quote you?

3. Exactly!

4. Those rumblings aren't anywhere near as loud (and they mostly come from numpties anyway) as the rumblings that there are more and more bikes coming, along with ever greater restrictions on the use of motor vehicles in urban situations.

5. It's not a big one.

[nickfrog]

Digby said:

Start a bad motorway driving thread, then?

Why would I do that ? I don't use PH as an outlet for my anger and frustration. Again, don't judge me by your own standards.

[anonymous-user]

Digby said:

squashing yourself up the inside of an HGV in London with inches to spare on a bike?

<snip>


Funny how there are also rumblings about fine increases for cyclists in the UK now. Several countries have done the same to try and stop dangerous, careless riding and the breaking of laws.

It’s a problem.

People getting killed while they are riding their bikes is a problem. It's probably not as pressing a problem as general road traffic deaths, obesity related deaths or deaths from cancer, so in terms of grabbing a government's attention, it's got a big job to do.

The reason I snipped those two parts of your post is that fines punish behaviours. It is (at least IMO) very difficult to argue that the solution a cyclist stupidly putting themselves in a position of danger on the nearside of an HGV is to fine them. What's the catalyst going to be? "Ten cyclists were crushed to death by HGVs this year. It's time to fine them! Yes, fine the cyclists!". Outside the closed environments of places like here and the Daily Mail comments page, that's just not going to get traction.

Part of the problem is behaviours. Some cyclists are pretty fking stupid when it comes to understanding what their personal safety cell is or should be. Some is technological - besides stickers and "Warning, this vehicle is turning left" recordings, why not also have HGVs fitted with cameras and laterally placed parking sensors?

And some of the problem is the infrastructure: we have a limited amount of roadspace and everyone has to share it. Somehow. Forex, I think you can divide cyclists into two broad groups: fast and slow.

The slow ones would be much better off being routed through quiet back streets in an urban environment. But that means a lot of stopping and starting, so they won't like that.

The fast ones don't mind being in urban traffic at urban speeds because they can keep up. But they find themselves having to compete with buses in bus lanes (it's lovely when a bus takes offence to you using his lane, passes nice and close then pulls across your and brakes hard for the bus stop he knew was coming). And vehicles turning across them at junctions. And a two metre section of road that has a disproportionate amount of ironwork on it.

Cycle lanes, whether segregated or not, exist for the former group, not the latter group. I much prefer the road because car tyres sweep it. Cycles lanes are often filled shards of grit or glass that can cause punctures, or slippery leaves, or pedestrians who regard them as an extension of the pavement simply because they don't have cars in them.

And if you're curious (and I know you are) I'd say "bad" cyclists fall disproportionately into the slow group.

Some sport of cycling test wouldn't be a necessarily bad idea, but really anyone who holds a driving licence ought to be able to ride safely in traffic. Flipping that slightly, riding a bike in traffic would be an interesting addition to the driving test.