RE: Jaguar XE: Driven
Discussion
my bad, i was off by a factor of 10Maldini35 said:
God where do I start?
Yes the category is conservative. To shake up the world in the cut-throat B segment would mean Jaguar going toe to toe with their main competitors and delivering a product that matches them in the key areas and exceeds them in others.
Like it or not, Jaguar has not yet got the brand reputation for engineering excellence that their German counterparts have. It's not fair but it is a fact. That is one of the reasons their global sales are small and their residuals are poor. Please don't argue this.
As a result any new product from Jaguar has to go further (think 'Avis we try harder') to prove that they are a serious contender.
Already we have car journo's commenting on the poor infotainment system - this just fuels consumer preconceptions that Jaguar is behind the Germans in terms of technology and quality.
That is why I see this XE as a missed opportunity. It delivers in some areas but falls down in some of the important ones - like interior quaility and exterior design.
Your previous reply suggested that I was naive for suggesting that exterior design (or "shiny, shiny" as you so eloquently put it) is a key factor in peoples decision making process. Industry research since the dawn of time confirms this is a fact.
Not sure what you do, but you don't seem to understand much about the global car market or what sells.
I just hope you don't work for JLR or we are all doomed.
Good gried you really are hell bent on incorrect and destructive comments arent you ?
Firstly i havent read any reports that say the infotainment is bad , can you quote exactly the references you are talking about ? , i heard one comment that the screen could do with a higher pixel count, a comment not repeated in top gear/ autoexpress/ autocars reviews.
And just exactly how do you determine that its outdated when it hasnt even been released yet ???
looking at the website the car has functions controlled by smart phones, laser HUD systems and meridian hifi , exactly was is out of date with this then ?
http://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/xe/features-o...
Global sales have been small because of years of lack of investment and meddling from parent companys, that has all changed now. It's certainly not because of poor product as witnessed by the fact they have won the JD power reliability & satisfaction survey for the last 3 years!
You display a sad attitude toward supporting british product that seems totally blinkered by your dislike for the brand without having any practical experience of the car you are slagging off.
Yes the category is conservative. To shake up the world in the cut-throat B segment would mean Jaguar going toe to toe with their main competitors and delivering a product that matches them in the key areas and exceeds them in others.
Like it or not, Jaguar has not yet got the brand reputation for engineering excellence that their German counterparts have. It's not fair but it is a fact. That is one of the reasons their global sales are small and their residuals are poor. Please don't argue this.
As a result any new product from Jaguar has to go further (think 'Avis we try harder') to prove that they are a serious contender.
Already we have car journo's commenting on the poor infotainment system - this just fuels consumer preconceptions that Jaguar is behind the Germans in terms of technology and quality.
That is why I see this XE as a missed opportunity. It delivers in some areas but falls down in some of the important ones - like interior quaility and exterior design.
Your previous reply suggested that I was naive for suggesting that exterior design (or "shiny, shiny" as you so eloquently put it) is a key factor in peoples decision making process. Industry research since the dawn of time confirms this is a fact.
Not sure what you do, but you don't seem to understand much about the global car market or what sells.
I just hope you don't work for JLR or we are all doomed.
Good gried you really are hell bent on incorrect and destructive comments arent you ?
Firstly i havent read any reports that say the infotainment is bad , can you quote exactly the references you are talking about ? , i heard one comment that the screen could do with a higher pixel count, a comment not repeated in top gear/ autoexpress/ autocars reviews.
And just exactly how do you determine that its outdated when it hasnt even been released yet ???
looking at the website the car has functions controlled by smart phones, laser HUD systems and meridian hifi , exactly was is out of date with this then ?
http://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/xe/features-o...
Global sales have been small because of years of lack of investment and meddling from parent companys, that has all changed now. It's certainly not because of poor product as witnessed by the fact they have won the JD power reliability & satisfaction survey for the last 3 years!
You display a sad attitude toward supporting british product that seems totally blinkered by your dislike for the brand without having any practical experience of the car you are slagging off.
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:39
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:56
The Jag has just appeared on our company lease scheme. I've just ran a compare with Audi, BMW and Merc, only criteria is that it is a diesel 4-dr saloon. (24 months, 10,000 miles per annum)
In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
Cotic said:
The Jag has just appeared on our company lease scheme. I've just ran a compare with Audi, BMW and Merc, only criteria is that it is a diesel 4-dr saloon. (24 months, 10,000 miles per annum)
In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
Not to mention that between the C200, A4 and 318, the jaguar will be the most powerful and have the least CO².In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
Sheepshanks said:
That (low sales volume aspirations) is the reason they won't get on many company car lists - they won't be competitive on lease costs as they've no need to be.
Except they will be, because residuals are projected to be better than most of the competition and the car has been openly targeting fleet lists since its inception.The lease costs are good, as shown above. There is no reason people won't be swayed by it as an alternative in the company car market.
Great to read that the XE maintains Jaguar's legendary blend of ride comfort, refinement and sporting handling. Also good to see that the electric steering works well. Just shows the talent of Jaguar's engineers. I'm looking forward to trying one.
Having said that, for me it is still a massive disappointment that Jaguar wrapped such apparently excellent mechanicals in a bland, derivative body and gave it an equally bland and slightly downmarket cabin. Having spent a few hours with both the S and a Portfolio I was very underwhelmed and to be honest, as a 34 year old potential buyer the car did little for me. Not to mention the lack of space and obvious cost-cutting inside.
With more distinctive and emotional styling (not challenging as some have said, but less generic) and an interior closer to the C Class for luxury feel, this thing would be an absolute world beater. I fear its lack of showroom appeal may mean that potential buyers don't get to appreciate its fine driving experience. Especially as most of its rivals will be replaced or facelift over the next 18 months.
A Jaguar should be a Jaguar - that means beautiful styling and a luxurious, warm interior. The XJ manages to do it, the XK did, the F-Type certainly does and the XF did when it came out (the exterior now looks a bit generic). They don't need to be retro like the old XJ but for God's sake, they need to be distinctive. Just copying rival designs and playing it safe is not good enough. The XE will date very quickly indeed.
To give you an idea of what would have worked better, imagine the XE with haunches over the rear wheels, slimmer, more elegant rear lights, more shapely headlights and smoother sides. Instantly more eye-catching but still modern and still safe enough not to offend. Couple that with an interior more akin to that of the XJ in terms of design and material usage (not necessarily quality of course) and you would have something that reps would drool over.
I might be proven wrong but my business consultant brain says that Jaguar's overt conservatism with the XE might have a negative impact on its potential. Certainly the internet commentary suggests many potential buyers are disappointed in the aesthetics.
Which is a shame if the car is class-leading from a driving experience point of view.
Having said that, for me it is still a massive disappointment that Jaguar wrapped such apparently excellent mechanicals in a bland, derivative body and gave it an equally bland and slightly downmarket cabin. Having spent a few hours with both the S and a Portfolio I was very underwhelmed and to be honest, as a 34 year old potential buyer the car did little for me. Not to mention the lack of space and obvious cost-cutting inside.
With more distinctive and emotional styling (not challenging as some have said, but less generic) and an interior closer to the C Class for luxury feel, this thing would be an absolute world beater. I fear its lack of showroom appeal may mean that potential buyers don't get to appreciate its fine driving experience. Especially as most of its rivals will be replaced or facelift over the next 18 months.
A Jaguar should be a Jaguar - that means beautiful styling and a luxurious, warm interior. The XJ manages to do it, the XK did, the F-Type certainly does and the XF did when it came out (the exterior now looks a bit generic). They don't need to be retro like the old XJ but for God's sake, they need to be distinctive. Just copying rival designs and playing it safe is not good enough. The XE will date very quickly indeed.
To give you an idea of what would have worked better, imagine the XE with haunches over the rear wheels, slimmer, more elegant rear lights, more shapely headlights and smoother sides. Instantly more eye-catching but still modern and still safe enough not to offend. Couple that with an interior more akin to that of the XJ in terms of design and material usage (not necessarily quality of course) and you would have something that reps would drool over.
I might be proven wrong but my business consultant brain says that Jaguar's overt conservatism with the XE might have a negative impact on its potential. Certainly the internet commentary suggests many potential buyers are disappointed in the aesthetics.
Which is a shame if the car is class-leading from a driving experience point of view.
Edited by hackjo on Thursday 29th January 12:48
NOT sure it's that 'overtly conservative'.... certainly compared to the S and X Type of recent times, this is a HUGE step forward using styling and graphics that are at the every least 'current' if not next-gen. (Whereas before it was just about current if not sadly behind the times or retro fail.
As said by others here, handling wise it 'appears' to have matched if not beaten the competition.
Comfort wise it 'appears' to have done the same
VFM...not sure
Styling - subjective, but would again to have at least 'matched' the competition and by virtue of being 'new' will...should..have initial showroom appeal...
Sadly if what you say about the inetrior ambience and quality is true, this will not bode well however...
As said by others here, handling wise it 'appears' to have matched if not beaten the competition.
Comfort wise it 'appears' to have done the same
VFM...not sure
Styling - subjective, but would again to have at least 'matched' the competition and by virtue of being 'new' will...should..have initial showroom appeal...
Sadly if what you say about the inetrior ambience and quality is true, this will not bode well however...
Agoogy said:
NOT sure it's that 'overtly conservative'.... certainly compared to the S and X Type of recent times, this is a HUGE step forward using styling and graphics that are at the every least 'current' if not next-gen. (Whereas before it was just about current if not sadly behind the times or retro fail.
As said by others here, handling wise it 'appears' to have matched if not beaten the competition.
Comfort wise it 'appears' to have done the same
VFM...not sure
Styling - subjective, but would again to have at least 'matched' the competition and by virtue of being 'new' will...should..have initial showroom appeal...
Sadly if what you say about the inetrior ambience and quality is true, this will not bode well however...
It is true, but that's my perspective.As said by others here, handling wise it 'appears' to have matched if not beaten the competition.
Comfort wise it 'appears' to have done the same
VFM...not sure
Styling - subjective, but would again to have at least 'matched' the competition and by virtue of being 'new' will...should..have initial showroom appeal...
Sadly if what you say about the inetrior ambience and quality is true, this will not bode well however...
Reference older models, I drive a black S-Type with mesh grilles front and rear, no chrome and a body kit. It has no wood inside, just aluminium and champagne leather. It continually gets complimentary comments from my peers, even kids would you believe. I love it, yet I see a normal S-Type SE with chrome trim, wood interior etc. and think "yuk, old man's car". Yet mine (and others like it) looks like a junior Bentley.
I think the main problem with the Jaguars of 2001 - 2008 (excluding the dodgy X-Type) was largely down to the stuffy marketing, dowdy trims on the majority of models and the reliance on burr walnut interiors. The late X350 XJ and S-Type's were very aggressive looking cars that screamed "Jaguar" but had the sporting looks and modern material choices buyers look for. I can't help but think they got things arse about face.
What we're now seeing is Jaguar going too far the other way as a reaction against the criticism of those older models - the XE is the culmination of that.
The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle and that's where they should be aiming for.
Maybe they need to do this conservative thing first to win credibility back and then go more distinctive? Dunno.
Cotic said:
The Jag has just appeared on our company lease scheme. I've just ran a compare with Audi, BMW and Merc, only criteria is that it is a diesel 4-dr saloon. (24 months, 10,000 miles per annum)
In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
The 5 Series? In ascending price order: -
Audi A4 Diesel Saloon 2.0TDie SE Technik 4dr - £520.05 per month.
Jaguar XE Diesel Saloon 2.0d SE 4dr - £524.20 per month
Mercedes Benz C Class Diesel Saloon SE Bluetec C200 SE 4dr - £532.06 per month
BMW 3 Series Diesel Saloon 320d Efficientdynamics 4dr (Business Media) - £547.14 per month
These are the cheapest costs for each small exec in the range - the 318 is not offered, for example. To be fair to BMW, a 518d is listed which is slightly cheaper than the 320d - (£546.36)
Looks to me that Jaguar have the lease costs for the XE about spot-on. I know which I'd order from that list.
Interesting though - in my company we never saw the lease prices, we just got a list with BIK value. I would say, across about 120 people, most would choose whichever car was the newest. People changing around the time a facelift was due was always fraught - you'd get 3yrs of someone being miserable about their car if they got the "old" one.
On that basis the Jag would do well - a lot of people would choose it.
Odd how BMW are quite a bit dearer though - bet they'll address that pretty quickly.
jl34 said:
Maldini35 said:
God where do I start?
Yes the category is conservative. To shake up the world in the cut-throat B segment would mean Jaguar going toe to toe with their main competitors and delivering a product that matches them in the key areas and exceeds them in others.
Like it or not, Jaguar has not yet got the brand reputation for engineering excellence that their German counterparts have. It's not fair but it is a fact. That is one of the reasons their global sales are small and their residuals are poor. Please don't argue this.
As a result any new product from Jaguar has to go further (think 'Avis we try harder') to prove that they are a serious contender.
Already we have car journo's commenting on the poor infotainment system - this just fuels consumer preconceptions that Jaguar is behind the Germans in terms of technology and quality.
That is why I see this XE as a missed opportunity. It delivers in some areas but falls down in some of the important ones - like interior quaility and exterior design.
Your previous reply suggested that I was naive for suggesting that exterior design (or "shiny, shiny" as you so eloquently put it) is a key factor in peoples decision making process. Industry research since the dawn of time confirms this is a fact.
Not sure what you do, but you don't seem to understand much about the global car market or what sells.
I just hope you don't work for JLR or we are all doomed.
Good gried you really are hell bent on incorrect and destructive comments arent you ?
Firstly i havent read any reports that say the infotainment is bad , can you quote exactly the references you are talking about ? , i heard one comment that the screen could do with a higher pixel count, a comment not repeated in top gear/ autoexpress/ autocars reviews.
And just exactly how do you determine that its outdated when it hasnt even been released yet ???
looking at the website the car has functions controlled by smart phones, laser HUD systems and meridian hifi , exactly was is out of date with this then ?
http://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/xe/features-o...
Global sales have been small because of years of lack of investment and meddling from parent companys, that has all changed now. It's certainly not because of poor product as witnessed by the fact they have won the JD power reliability & satisfaction survey for the last 3 years!
You display a sad attitude toward supporting british product that seems totally blinkered by your dislike for the brand without having any practical experience of the car you are slagging off.
Yes the category is conservative. To shake up the world in the cut-throat B segment would mean Jaguar going toe to toe with their main competitors and delivering a product that matches them in the key areas and exceeds them in others.
Like it or not, Jaguar has not yet got the brand reputation for engineering excellence that their German counterparts have. It's not fair but it is a fact. That is one of the reasons their global sales are small and their residuals are poor. Please don't argue this.
As a result any new product from Jaguar has to go further (think 'Avis we try harder') to prove that they are a serious contender.
Already we have car journo's commenting on the poor infotainment system - this just fuels consumer preconceptions that Jaguar is behind the Germans in terms of technology and quality.
That is why I see this XE as a missed opportunity. It delivers in some areas but falls down in some of the important ones - like interior quaility and exterior design.
Your previous reply suggested that I was naive for suggesting that exterior design (or "shiny, shiny" as you so eloquently put it) is a key factor in peoples decision making process. Industry research since the dawn of time confirms this is a fact.
Not sure what you do, but you don't seem to understand much about the global car market or what sells.
I just hope you don't work for JLR or we are all doomed.
Good gried you really are hell bent on incorrect and destructive comments arent you ?
Firstly i havent read any reports that say the infotainment is bad , can you quote exactly the references you are talking about ? , i heard one comment that the screen could do with a higher pixel count, a comment not repeated in top gear/ autoexpress/ autocars reviews.
And just exactly how do you determine that its outdated when it hasnt even been released yet ???
looking at the website the car has functions controlled by smart phones, laser HUD systems and meridian hifi , exactly was is out of date with this then ?
http://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/xe/features-o...
Global sales have been small because of years of lack of investment and meddling from parent companys, that has all changed now. It's certainly not because of poor product as witnessed by the fact they have won the JD power reliability & satisfaction survey for the last 3 years!
You display a sad attitude toward supporting british product that seems totally blinkered by your dislike for the brand without having any practical experience of the car you are slagging off.
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:39
Edited by Maldini35 on Thursday 29th January 10:56
JLR have done a great job over the last few years.
I just don't think they've done a great job with this car and I won't be blinkered by jingoistic nonsense in my assessment.
It's my personal opinion, although it does seem to be shared by a few on this forum, but as I said in my first post, the market will decide.
I hope I'm wrong but I suspect I'll be proved right.
To me it looks to be pitched straight into the fleet market and pretty much exactly the right price and from what I've read it's pretty much on a par with the Germans in terms of quality. I'm certainly not the right person to ask about the relative value of different badges in the minds of the masses but I'd put Jaguar on a par with Mercedes in terms of badge kudos, and hence ahead of BMW and Audi.
I see no reason at all to believe the company car park wont be filling up with them, to sit alongside the equally bland 3-series, A4s, C-classes, etc.
I see no reason at all to believe the company car park wont be filling up with them, to sit alongside the equally bland 3-series, A4s, C-classes, etc.
unpc said:
To all those people on here criticising the looks, how many have seen it in the flesh? This car looks much better in the metal than in pictures and even better on the move.
Not sure if anyone else has noticed but this seems increasingly to be the case with cars - I seem to remember (tho might be talking cobblers ) that this sort of observation has been made for a few car launches in the last few years and it never seemed to be the case (I have been driving for 34 years and reading car mags for 13 or 14 years before that! Eek!)anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Bangle-era BMWs were a design flourish allowed by BMW's leadership position across multiple luxury / performance / exec segments. Conversely, Jaguar are not a small-exec leader; they're a challenger.IF LAND ROVER DID IT, WHY CAN'T WE?
Why can't the new XE borrow a page from Land Rover and its exuberant Evoque? Because among luxury SUVs, Land Rover is the segment standard. Unlike Jaguar and its ill-fated X-Type, Land Rover has nothing to atone for.
The Evoque is intended to tap the extraordinary growth of CUVs among shoppers who want SUV attributes, but without the full-on SUV.
This is a leadership position and it is opportunistic -- an enviable business case that has little in common with Jaguar and its journey as a challenger brand among established exec leaders.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Until today, Jaguar had no permission from consumers to trade in the small exec segment. 1. Jaguar had no product in this segment for some time
2. The last Jaguar product was less than competitive -- and was disparaged for the twee nostalgia of its designs
To get on the short list of acceptable alternatives, Jaguar must now prove its mettle.
This proof is the XE, a car which is a Jaguar interpretation of the segment standard. "If you like an archetypal exec -- but are tired of the attitude and the utter dominance of the usual suspects -- come have a look."
At the moment, this cannot be achieved with an unconventional design. The XE must atone for past sins. And it must appeal to a wide range of current and potential exec owners.
This is a portfolio strategy.
The XE is not merely about the small exec segment. The XE fights on volume and, as customers move up the Jaguar portfolio, the products become less about "Welcome to the family" and more about the design language of self expression.
In their sophisticated pursuit of lifetime customer value, Jaguar are showing world-class decisions.
kambites said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
But the Bangle era 3-series was pretty tame, at least compared to the 5- and 7-. Calmed RIGHT down, thats what...
and why?
The general unwashed reaction.
The thing with 'market leading' or defining cars such as the 3 series is that for some time now they have out sold the Mondeo (?!) the common car is now not the 'common' car but the status symbol branded car...how do you keep such a brand at the top? in a segments where ubiquity will lead to an early grave...
They need to keep them fresh.
So every once in a while unleash a 'visionary' upon the brand...
and diversify into niche segments that create column inches.
BMW define in more areas than just driving dynamics.
It seems to me very sensible to ape their strategies in the short term...
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