RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Not having broken down on a motorway in a car, for many years.
I guess the idea is to get out of a live running lane, ie to a refuge, or hard shoulder, or a grass verge.
Dismissing that these could not be available, as the car is immobilized where it stands.
I feel getting out of the passenger side, leaving the hazards on, is top priority.
It is inevitable there is going to be a bang.
I would just hope it would be a substantial 40 ton arctic that rams the back bumper up near the front bumper.
Less chance the arctic driver going to get hurt.
I guess the idea is to get out of a live running lane, ie to a refuge, or hard shoulder, or a grass verge.
Dismissing that these could not be available, as the car is immobilized where it stands.
I feel getting out of the passenger side, leaving the hazards on, is top priority.
It is inevitable there is going to be a bang.
I would just hope it would be a substantial 40 ton arctic that rams the back bumper up near the front bumper.
Less chance the arctic driver going to get hurt.
Mandown46 said:
Several of us on here have offered tours, guides and responses to the original article, very disappointing that the author has chosen not to follow any of them up.
Also, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
I think you've said it all there MandownAlso, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
The problem seems to be those restrictive rules and policy
We all know that most of the time the signs are either wrong or misleading to the point that when theyre right, very few believe them. It achieves the opposite of whats intended.
Although the offer is welcome, whats the point of a visit to the control room where we can see the poor guy who cant set a useful message but only choose a pre-approved message, or the other guy who cant take a long out of date message away due to the rules, or the box that sets a 40 limit on one gantry while everything else says 50 because thats what the rules in the box say its supposed to do?
It needs a trip to see the people who decide these rules and policy. Where are they?
I'll repeat what I've said many times on here, we have to set signals if whatever is reported is reported as being in the live c/way, usually "incident" until confirmed, although "Animals" "Pedestrians" "oncoming vehicle" will be set if that's what the report says.
The BIGGEST problem with either signals not being in the correct place, or nothing there, is the information that we're given, usually from a police operator from a 999 call, they just put down what the informant tells them, 80% of the time it's very iffy. Ie Junction "x" on the M6. Does that mean northbound / south bound / before / after the junction, and by how much? This happens over 80% of the time with calls that come to us that way, at best we might get between junctions as the location.
Anyway, I'm not going on with that any more, you all believe that you know best!
But as an aid for driving on *SMART* motorways (& no, I'm not a fan of them!) if the line between the "Hard-shoulder" (or was) and lane 1 is broken, and looks just like the lines separating the other lanes, then the hard shoulder is open ALL THE TIME just like a normal lane, that is unless it's closed for an incident with a red X.
However, if the line between the "Hard-shoulder" and lane 1 is a solid white line, then it's only for use when the signs say that you can use it, the rest of the time you can't use it.
The BIGGEST problem with either signals not being in the correct place, or nothing there, is the information that we're given, usually from a police operator from a 999 call, they just put down what the informant tells them, 80% of the time it's very iffy. Ie Junction "x" on the M6. Does that mean northbound / south bound / before / after the junction, and by how much? This happens over 80% of the time with calls that come to us that way, at best we might get between junctions as the location.
Anyway, I'm not going on with that any more, you all believe that you know best!
But as an aid for driving on *SMART* motorways (& no, I'm not a fan of them!) if the line between the "Hard-shoulder" (or was) and lane 1 is broken, and looks just like the lines separating the other lanes, then the hard shoulder is open ALL THE TIME just like a normal lane, that is unless it's closed for an incident with a red X.
However, if the line between the "Hard-shoulder" and lane 1 is a solid white line, then it's only for use when the signs say that you can use it, the rest of the time you can't use it.
Gafferjim said:
I'll repeat what I've said many times on here, we have to set signals if whatever is reported is reported as being in the live c/way, usually "incident" until confirmed, although "Animals" "Pedestrians" "oncoming vehicle" will be set if that's what the report says.
The BIGGEST problem with either signals not being in the correct place, or nothing there, is the information that we're given, usually from a police operator from a 999 call, they just put down what the informant tells them, 80% of the time it's very iffy. Ie Junction "x" on the M6. Does that mean northbound / south bound / before / after the junction, and by how much? This happens over 80% of the time with calls that come to us that way, at best we might get between junctions as the location.
I think that's kinda what I said The BIGGEST problem with either signals not being in the correct place, or nothing there, is the information that we're given, usually from a police operator from a 999 call, they just put down what the informant tells them, 80% of the time it's very iffy. Ie Junction "x" on the M6. Does that mean northbound / south bound / before / after the junction, and by how much? This happens over 80% of the time with calls that come to us that way, at best we might get between junctions as the location.
How much of the network is missing cameras to see whats going on?
Mandown46 said:
Several of us on here have offered tours, guides and responses to the original article, very disappointing that the author has chosen not to follow any of them up.
Also, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
You mean you want to explain why they are crap? I'm not knocking you as I'll assume that you didn't make the rules or pass the legislation that enabled these horrors to be inflicted on the travelling public. Also, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
We need more 4 and 5 lane sections, another transpennine motorway, the A1 widened along its total length, larger junctions, more flyovers etc...not signs giving out misleading info, speed camera to hand out fines and the loss of the hard shoulder....
Edited by Wills2 on Friday 23 October 19:21
Wills2 said:
Mandown46 said:
Several of us on here have offered tours, guides and responses to the original article, very disappointing that the author has chosen not to follow any of them up.
Also, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
You mean you want to explain why they are crap? Also, there isn't really any need to be 'quite' so insulting to us, we are restricted by rules, policy and procedure for many of the things you are complaining about, and you don't often have access to the same reports and information that we do, and vice versa.
saaby93 said:
think that's kinda what I said
How much of the network is missing cameras to see whats going on?
How much do you think is covered ? I recockon probably 80% is uncovered.How much of the network is missing cameras to see whats going on?
Wills2 said:
You mean you want to explain why they are crap? I'm not knocking you as I'll assume that you didn't make the rules or pass the legislation that enabled these horrors to be inflicted on the travelling public.
We need more 4 and 5 lane sections, another transpennine motorway, the A1 widened along its total length, larger junctions, more flyovers etc...not signs giving out misleading info, speed camera to hand out fines and the loss of the hard shoulder....
Explaining why they are crap ? or trying to educate the unknowledgable ?We need more 4 and 5 lane sections, another transpennine motorway, the A1 widened along its total length, larger junctions, more flyovers etc...not signs giving out misleading info, speed camera to hand out fines and the loss of the hard shoulder....
1.More lanes are being added within the boundaries to shut up the Nimbies and enviromentalists where possible.
2. Google Transpennine feasibility study and read on the proposed road tunnel under the pennines from Manchester to Sheffield.
Also climbing lanes over the A628 Woodhead
3. The A1 is being Widened/upgraded as you type from Leeming to Barton, It was widened/upgraded up to Leeming a couple of years ago and other bits are in planning along various sections.
4. Google "Pinch point schemes" then read about various ones.
5.Expressways are coming, Again Google it traffic lights and roundabouts going and grade separated junctions replacing them.
Google "Highways England delivery plan 2015" Part of RIS1 (roads investment strategy"
RIS2 is being worked upon, I was chatting to someone recently on requirements to 2040 and beyond which isn't far away, think back to what motorways were like in 1990 it's only that timescale again.
I was in my very early 20's then, I'll be in my early 70's on the roads and technology they are designing now.
I was reading a report on policy from the late 80's which stated they had 30% traffic growth over 10 years. Can you image another 30% traffic growth every 10 years and try and plan it in with technology constantly improving.
The subject of the no hard shoulder or a verge should be the most talked about subject due to it being the most dangerous aspect that has been dropped onto all drivers here in the UK without it seems and yet again by stealth.
It seems typical of this world that went completely mad around the 40 years mark that there are people in authority who
do not have the expertise, experience, and knowledge of those who they are supposed to be correctly advising or enforcing. This anomaly is made clear by the latest idiocy in thinking that no hard shoulder or refuge of any kind is satisfactory on motorways........
It is clear to any experienced driver that the people who have the responsibility to keep our roads safe are not up to that job. They do not possess a fraction of the necessary perception needed to carry out road safety. Three people are dead already due to no hard shoulder refuge but many more will follow because motorway design engineering without a refuge is a disaster waiting to happen. We should all hope that common sense will prevail and the no hard shoulder design is revoked forthwith. For Safety's sake.
It seems typical of this world that went completely mad around the 40 years mark that there are people in authority who
do not have the expertise, experience, and knowledge of those who they are supposed to be correctly advising or enforcing. This anomaly is made clear by the latest idiocy in thinking that no hard shoulder or refuge of any kind is satisfactory on motorways........
It is clear to any experienced driver that the people who have the responsibility to keep our roads safe are not up to that job. They do not possess a fraction of the necessary perception needed to carry out road safety. Three people are dead already due to no hard shoulder refuge but many more will follow because motorway design engineering without a refuge is a disaster waiting to happen. We should all hope that common sense will prevail and the no hard shoulder design is revoked forthwith. For Safety's sake.
Mick50NCD said:
The subject of the no hard shoulder or a verge should be the most talked about subject due to it being the most dangerous aspect that has been dropped onto all drivers here in the UK without it seems and yet again by stealth.
It seems typical of this world that went completely mad around the 40 years mark that there are people in authority who
do not have the expertise, experience, and knowledge of those who they are supposed to be correctly advising or enforcing. This anomaly is made clear by the latest idiocy in thinking that no hard shoulder or refuge of any kind is satisfactory on motorways........
It is clear to any experienced driver that the people who have the responsibility to keep our roads safe are not up to that job. They do not possess a fraction of the necessary perception needed to carry out road safety. Three people are dead already due to no hard shoulder refuge but many more will follow because motorway design engineering without a refuge is a disaster waiting to happen. We should all hope that common sense will prevail and the no hard shoulder design is revoked forthwith. For Safety's sake.
It’s done that way for one reason, cost. Much cheaper to just change the hard shoulder to a lane than widen the motorway to create a new lane and a new hard shoulder. And the men at the top will get their nice fat bonus for completing the works under budget. It seems typical of this world that went completely mad around the 40 years mark that there are people in authority who
do not have the expertise, experience, and knowledge of those who they are supposed to be correctly advising or enforcing. This anomaly is made clear by the latest idiocy in thinking that no hard shoulder or refuge of any kind is satisfactory on motorways........
It is clear to any experienced driver that the people who have the responsibility to keep our roads safe are not up to that job. They do not possess a fraction of the necessary perception needed to carry out road safety. Three people are dead already due to no hard shoulder refuge but many more will follow because motorway design engineering without a refuge is a disaster waiting to happen. We should all hope that common sense will prevail and the no hard shoulder design is revoked forthwith. For Safety's sake.
When smart motorways were first mooted I thought they were supposed to have total CCTV coverage so there would be no need for spurious signs relying on reports from the public of stampeding unicorns. As soon as an obstruction occurs it would be immediately spotted by the control room and e.g. a lane would be closed before a broken down vehicle has even ground to halt.
jamei303 said:
When smart motorways were first mooted I thought they were supposed to have total CCTV coverage so there would be no need for spurious signs relying on reports from the public of stampeding unicorns. As soon as an obstruction occurs it would be immediately spotted by the control room and e.g. a lane would be closed before a broken down vehicle has even ground to halt.
CCTV control rooms full of people watching screens full of nothing happening?What chance of them spotting the unicorn before the member of public :tumbeweed:
saaby93 said:
CCTV control rooms full of people watching screens full of nothing happening?
What chance of them spotting the unicorn before the member of public :tumbeweed:
They would have traffic flow sensors for example. Any traffic slowing down below the prevailing speed would alert staff to the relevant cameras. It's not rocket science, but perhaps it's all too much for Highways England and just having a normally-managed motorway without a hard shoulder is the only thing they can conceive of.What chance of them spotting the unicorn before the member of public :tumbeweed:
jamei303 said:
They would have traffic flow sensors for example. Any traffic slowing down below the prevailing speed would alert staff to the relevant cameras. It's not rocket science, but perhaps it's all too much for Highways England and just having a normally-managed motorway without a hard shoulder is the only thing they can conceive of.
The big problem is with removing hard shoulders. By the time the traffic has slowed down and trigerred the sensors, it is too late. Whilst a hard shoulder is not safe, it is much safer than waiting for someone to close a lane. Hard shoulders also offer an escape option when joining at a slip road. All lane running removes this.
The hard shoulder should be a separate lane which is normally closed to maintain safety and only opened to increase capacity at busy times. If it needs to be open more often then there are not enough lanes.
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