Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?
Discussion
ZX10R NIN said:
DoubleSix said:
Great.
But what on earth has that to do with the thread?
Best B road car I've ever had was my Cayman but it's got nothing to do with the thread; which was about fwd hatches vs rwd saloons as best as I can tell.
Agreed it has nothing to do with this thread & it is about that, so I take it that you're now agreeing the OP mentioned a 328i(turbo 4 pot) vs Hot hatches (turbo 4 pot) down a B Road.But what on earth has that to do with the thread?
Best B road car I've ever had was my Cayman but it's got nothing to do with the thread; which was about fwd hatches vs rwd saloons as best as I can tell.
At which point given the choice I'd pick the Megane as IMO it would be the better car, I was surprised by the latest Evo hot hatch test where they surprisingly placed the M135i last.
If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 i'd just f
king walk i reckon.
DoubleSix said:
Still not sure what OP was going on about tbh as he mentions 6 cyls in the post does he not?? That's why I got involved.
If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 and just fking walk i reckon.
I agree with that at that point I'd just get on the bike, if it's going to be a 4 might as well make it a fast one If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 and just f
king walk i reckon.
Maybe he thinks the the new 328i is a 6 pot, just to add to the confusion the new 330i is still the same Four Pot Turbo
yonex said:
SidewaysSi said:
I didn't think my ITR had chatty steering at all during normal road use. It was a lot better once the diff was working hard, however it was hardly the sort of car bubbling with feedback when pooling at 30mph. After 5 years of all sorts of driving, I did love it. But not its steering!
Totally. I figured I let you say it The DC2 was only ever relevant when being battered. The turn in was amongst the most fun of any car I've owned yet at normal speeds the feedback from the front may have been a civic. It took two test drives and a weekend to convince me to buy one in 1999. I spent 7 years with that car which speaks volumes. They don't have 'chatty' steering 
. Cracking car. At the time I was thinking of changing and drove an air cooled 911 and E46 M3. After both test drives, I jumped back in the Honda. On both occasions, the ITR was the more exciting car. The BMW was a dull boat in comparison. I do like it when people bang on about that engine. Believe it, it was nothing against the B18c.
Ended up with an Elise S1 as it was the only one of the three which put some distance between itself and the ITR to justify the purchase.
SidewaysSi said:
Agreed! Great front end and with a bit of left foot braking, you could have it attack corners at various angles . Cracking car.
At the time I was thinking of changing and drove an air cooled 911 and E46 M3. After both test drives, I jumped back in the Honda. On both occasions, the ITR was the more exciting car. The BMW was a dull boat in comparison. I do like it when people bang on about that engine. Believe it, it was nothing against the B18c.
Ended up with an Elise S1 as it was the only one of the three which put some distance between itself and the ITR to justify the purchase.
It was a pain in the ass that car. I drove all sorts looking to change and it always had a reason to stay. I gave up in the end and bought a shed. Cracking car. At the time I was thinking of changing and drove an air cooled 911 and E46 M3. After both test drives, I jumped back in the Honda. On both occasions, the ITR was the more exciting car. The BMW was a dull boat in comparison. I do like it when people bang on about that engine. Believe it, it was nothing against the B18c.
Ended up with an Elise S1 as it was the only one of the three which put some distance between itself and the ITR to justify the purchase.
The speeds it could carry were way beyond what you'd think and it did it with a half decent ride and skinny tyres. I'll never get bored of the sound through 3 to 4th gear absolutely wringing its neck. It was a just few octaves short of a properly sorted track car. The K series I had in the Caterham had thousands chucked at it but it was never as much fun, or sounded as sweet as that B18.
DoubleSix said:
Still not sure what OP was going on about tbh as he mentions 6 cyls in the post does he not?? That's why I got involved.
If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 i'd just fking walk i reckon.
Well, the point is that an awful lot of mid-sized saloons ARE four-pots these days, which is why I phrased the original post in the way I did. Late shape 328i's are turbo four-pots. I kind-of-deliberately-but-trying-not-to-try-too-hard wanted to deliberately make people stop thinking "Hmm, lovely straight-six, yup I'll have that please" and actually think about what alternatives there are to a modern-ish hot hatch these days for similar age/money.If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 i'd just f
king walk i reckon.I guess you'd better buy some decent shoes for walking.
I agree that it's a shame that the six-pots are rapidly dying out but that's the world we live in now. There are advantages beyond the faux-green credentials though: less weight between the front wheels can promote decent turn in. There are sacrifices for that though, as many posts on here understandably proclaim/protest.
I suppose I was trying to provoke a debate about possible alternatives to FWD hot hatches. They don't have to be particularly sober ones, but they do need a nod to practicality (shopping, sit some kids in the back etc) to make them feasible as a daily driver for your average Joe or Joanna.
Looking back, I wish I hadn't said "non-M Sport". The point about "non M-sport" was to try to separate off "sporty" styling, overly stiff suspension settings and too-big wheels for things that actually make a car fun to drive. Fill your boots if you want a non-sober RWD alternative.
yonex said:
SidewaysSi said:
Agreed! Great front end and with a bit of left foot braking, you could have it attack corners at various angles . Cracking car.
At the time I was thinking of changing and drove an air cooled 911 and E46 M3. After both test drives, I jumped back in the Honda. On both occasions, the ITR was the more exciting car. The BMW was a dull boat in comparison. I do like it when people bang on about that engine. Believe it, it was nothing against the B18c.
Ended up with an Elise S1 as it was the only one of the three which put some distance between itself and the ITR to justify the purchase.
It was a pain in the ass that car. I drove all sorts looking to change and it always had a reason to stay. I gave up in the end and bought a shed. Cracking car. At the time I was thinking of changing and drove an air cooled 911 and E46 M3. After both test drives, I jumped back in the Honda. On both occasions, the ITR was the more exciting car. The BMW was a dull boat in comparison. I do like it when people bang on about that engine. Believe it, it was nothing against the B18c.
Ended up with an Elise S1 as it was the only one of the three which put some distance between itself and the ITR to justify the purchase.
The speeds it could carry were way beyond what you'd think and it did it with a half decent ride and skinny tyres. I'll never get bored of the sound through 3 to 4th gear absolutely wringing its neck. It was a just few octaves short of a properly sorted track car. The K series I had in the Caterham had thousands chucked at it but it was never as much fun, or sounded as sweet as that B18.blearyeyedboy said:
Well, the point is that an awful lot of mid-sized saloons ARE four-pots these days, which is why I phrased the original post in the way I did. Late shape 328i's are turbo four-pots. I kind-of-deliberately-but-trying-not-to-try-too-hard wanted to deliberately make people stop thinking "Hmm, lovely straight-six, yup I'll have that please" and actually think about what alternatives there are to a modern-ish hot hatch these days for similar age/money.
I guess you'd better buy some decent shoes for walking.
I agree that it's a shame that the six-pots are rapidly dying out but that's the world we live in now. There are advantages beyond the faux-green credentials though: less weight between the front wheels can promote decent turn in. There are sacrifices for that though, as many posts on here understandably proclaim/protest.
I suppose I was trying to provoke a debate about possible alternatives to FWD hot hatches. They don't have to be particularly sober ones, but they do need a nod to practicality (shopping, sit some kids in the back etc) to make them feasible as a daily driver for your average Joe or Joanna.
Looking back, I wish I hadn't said "non-M Sport". The point about "non M-sport" was to try to separate off "sporty" styling, overly stiff suspension settings and too-big wheels for things that actually make a car fun to drive. Fill your boots if you want a non-sober RWD alternative.
The problem with ruling out M-Sport is that it pretty much excludes any modern BMW worth driving. Standard BMW suspension is horrendous. I guess you'd better buy some decent shoes for walking.
I agree that it's a shame that the six-pots are rapidly dying out but that's the world we live in now. There are advantages beyond the faux-green credentials though: less weight between the front wheels can promote decent turn in. There are sacrifices for that though, as many posts on here understandably proclaim/protest.
I suppose I was trying to provoke a debate about possible alternatives to FWD hot hatches. They don't have to be particularly sober ones, but they do need a nod to practicality (shopping, sit some kids in the back etc) to make them feasible as a daily driver for your average Joe or Joanna.
Looking back, I wish I hadn't said "non-M Sport". The point about "non M-sport" was to try to separate off "sporty" styling, overly stiff suspension settings and too-big wheels for things that actually make a car fun to drive. Fill your boots if you want a non-sober RWD alternative.
blearyeyedboy said:
I'm interested to know what people would answer to the following question:
You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like. You can pick up the keys to a pretty recent FWD 2 litre hot hatch or a RWD 4 pot petrol saloon. Which would you take?
The hot hatch has to be "pretty recent" as I read it and 2-litre.You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like. You can pick up the keys to a pretty recent FWD 2 litre hot hatch or a RWD 4 pot petrol saloon. Which would you take?
Does the 4-pot saloon have to be as recent or have you got free rein?
If so, I'll go for an 80s saloon
s m said:
If so, I'll go for an 80s saloon
What would you go for? I'd be tempeted to say one of the DTM-specials (e.g. E30 M3), but wide-arches make them a bit tricky for very narrow lanes. This is why I probably shouldn't have sold my 318iS - it didn't have much power, was dull when used for commuting, not very refined, but made a whole lot of sense when you just grabbed it and threw the car down a windy road Maybe a 2.5 190E?
I was thinking to buy a brand new 328 sedan in 2012 but I ended up buying a brand new 525d estate. The idea was to buy a daily driver that with a petrol engine, manual box and 2000cc displacement was frugal and insurance friendly enough to be covered by the company mileage refund but funny enough when encountering the right road. Also 250ps+ tax introduced in 2012 had made the ownership of my weekend car a lot more expensive and decreased its value, make me thinking to sell the V8 Vantage.
A brief test drive didn't convince me so I managed to have one for a weekend in sport trim, manual. M Sport trim wasn't available yet at the time. It was a delusion. In straight line performance terms the car felt fast but the older E90 330 6pot was much more pleasant. Between the bends the chassis copes up effectively but coming to the point of the tread I had more fun in the same road in a Clio 200 Cup.
A brief test drive didn't convince me so I managed to have one for a weekend in sport trim, manual. M Sport trim wasn't available yet at the time. It was a delusion. In straight line performance terms the car felt fast but the older E90 330 6pot was much more pleasant. Between the bends the chassis copes up effectively but coming to the point of the tread I had more fun in the same road in a Clio 200 Cup.
Leins said:
s m said:
If so, I'll go for an 80s saloon
What would you go for? I'd be tempeted to say one of the DTM-specials (e.g. E30 M3), but wide-arches make them a bit tricky for very narrow lanes. This is why I probably shouldn't have sold my 318iS - it didn't have much power, was dull when used for commuting, not very refined, but made a whole lot of sense when you just grabbed it and threw the car down a windy road Maybe a 2.5 190E?
Take your pick Leins!
I'd be happy with any of those 3 and personally I'd have just as much fun as in a 2014 hot hatch having grown up with the Mk1/2 Escort era cars. Seeing as the hypothetical roads are the Beacons where I like a drive out and they're all as narrow as a modern Mini ( and as light ), these would be fine
s m said:
Take your pick Leins!
I'd be happy with any of those 3 and personally I'd have just as much fun as in a 2014 hot hatch having grown up with the Mk1/2 Escort era cars. Seeing as the hypothetical roads are the Beacons where I like a drive out and they're all as narrow as a modern Mini ( and as light ), these would be fine
In saying that, I find the pace a BMW Mini can travel down those sort of roads isn't to be underestimated, and they're a lot of fun too
Leins said:
Has to be the E30 for me, much as I appreciate the other two!
In saying that, I find the pace a BMW Mini can travel down those sort of roads isn't to be underestimated, and they're a lot of fun too
Oh yes, have done the Beacons in the R53 MCS too - the military roads are often deserted and great views In saying that, I find the pace a BMW Mini can travel down those sort of roads isn't to be underestimated, and they're a lot of fun too
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