RE: Lotus Evora 400 :Driven
Discussion
smilo996 said:
I listened to BBC and ITV's coverage of the Tour De France this year. At every point, they were fair but also rooting for Chris Froome to win the Tour and why not. To the point where an ITV journo confronted a former doping French Cyclist turned journo who accused Froome of doping and humiliated him publically and rightly so.
In the end Froome won it. There was honest and warm praise for the competitors and genuinely enthusiastic praise and pride that a British rider had won the tour and won it twice. 5 years ago cycling in the UK was nowhere.
Nationalism is ugly, a smidgen of loyalty and rooting for the home team is expected and important.
It would be so good to see this attitude reflected in the UK motoring press. It might of course be that many of the cycling journos are former riders and thus know how immensely tough it is to win a stage in the Tour let alone the entire race. You have to wonder how many UK motoring journos have actually worked in, for or with a car company and thus know how incredibly tough and frustrating it is to compete with an industial leviathon like VW Group, BMW or Merc that are in many ways one company and how it feels to be panned by critics after working immensely hard.
Perhaps not an entirely accurate comparison or the correct review but it is getting really tiresome that some journos always come out with the line that the lastest from XY or Z is really good at almost everything but well yah it is just not as good as the 911 or the Cayman as if chatting in a pub in Chelsea. Especially when the German press have ignored a comparison to the 911 because it is not relevant and rate the Evora better than the Cayman. It smacks of snobbery. People do not buy a Lotus because all the switchgear is milled from solid obtanium and that specific window button was designed by 20 fanatical engineers over a period of 6 months.
The fact that Lotus is still around is a minor miracle, that it can even produce a car that comes anywhere near the Cayman in modern motoring engineering is a huge achivement. yet we get: "But whether driven by cost or weight saving (likely both) there's a flimsiness to the switchgear those accustomed to the German rivals will simply find laughable".
Perhaps those accustomed to German rivals should be roundly criticised for being much too anal about the window buttons and seemingly completely uninterested in how the car actually drives.
Thus German consumers will buy the Evora because it is a brilliant drivers car. British "consumers" with enough money will buy the Cayman, swayed by the central and fundamentally important arguement that the window buttons feel like the ones a winner would touch and the door handle feels soooo sensual as one shuts the door on the way to a colonic irrigation and chat with one's Shaman.
Come on PH. "And as a driving machine it has purity and feedback unmatched at any price, combining raw pace with a delicacy overtyred and overgeared Porsches can only dream of"
That is the one and only interesting sentence and obviously the headline yet it is buried in the article. How about being fair to those in Hethal busting their guts to make an amazing drivers car. Did they set out to design the best window switch?
It is almost ineviatable that when the new TVR comes out, iStream will be praised as adorable, the Cosworth V8 as great and the car as a beast but well, is it as good as the 911 and to be honest the x,y,z derived switchgear is just not as good as Porsche Boxter, Cayman, 911 or 918. So the choice is therefore clear. The F1 has switchgear off a Vauxhall and the rear lights from a Bus.
Some journos should spend more time shaping opinion and challenging people's views rather than supporting the staus quo. Especially ones, apaprently interested more than anything in drivers cars.
good post.In the end Froome won it. There was honest and warm praise for the competitors and genuinely enthusiastic praise and pride that a British rider had won the tour and won it twice. 5 years ago cycling in the UK was nowhere.
Nationalism is ugly, a smidgen of loyalty and rooting for the home team is expected and important.
It would be so good to see this attitude reflected in the UK motoring press. It might of course be that many of the cycling journos are former riders and thus know how immensely tough it is to win a stage in the Tour let alone the entire race. You have to wonder how many UK motoring journos have actually worked in, for or with a car company and thus know how incredibly tough and frustrating it is to compete with an industial leviathon like VW Group, BMW or Merc that are in many ways one company and how it feels to be panned by critics after working immensely hard.
Perhaps not an entirely accurate comparison or the correct review but it is getting really tiresome that some journos always come out with the line that the lastest from XY or Z is really good at almost everything but well yah it is just not as good as the 911 or the Cayman as if chatting in a pub in Chelsea. Especially when the German press have ignored a comparison to the 911 because it is not relevant and rate the Evora better than the Cayman. It smacks of snobbery. People do not buy a Lotus because all the switchgear is milled from solid obtanium and that specific window button was designed by 20 fanatical engineers over a period of 6 months.
The fact that Lotus is still around is a minor miracle, that it can even produce a car that comes anywhere near the Cayman in modern motoring engineering is a huge achivement. yet we get: "But whether driven by cost or weight saving (likely both) there's a flimsiness to the switchgear those accustomed to the German rivals will simply find laughable".
Perhaps those accustomed to German rivals should be roundly criticised for being much too anal about the window buttons and seemingly completely uninterested in how the car actually drives.
Thus German consumers will buy the Evora because it is a brilliant drivers car. British "consumers" with enough money will buy the Cayman, swayed by the central and fundamentally important arguement that the window buttons feel like the ones a winner would touch and the door handle feels soooo sensual as one shuts the door on the way to a colonic irrigation and chat with one's Shaman.
Come on PH. "And as a driving machine it has purity and feedback unmatched at any price, combining raw pace with a delicacy overtyred and overgeared Porsches can only dream of"
That is the one and only interesting sentence and obviously the headline yet it is buried in the article. How about being fair to those in Hethal busting their guts to make an amazing drivers car. Did they set out to design the best window switch?
It is almost ineviatable that when the new TVR comes out, iStream will be praised as adorable, the Cosworth V8 as great and the car as a beast but well, is it as good as the 911 and to be honest the x,y,z derived switchgear is just not as good as Porsche Boxter, Cayman, 911 or 918. So the choice is therefore clear. The F1 has switchgear off a Vauxhall and the rear lights from a Bus.
Some journos should spend more time shaping opinion and challenging people's views rather than supporting the staus quo. Especially ones, apaprently interested more than anything in drivers cars.
All cars are being affected by too tall gearing, although given that Porsche are part of a larger group i'm not sure why they've given in to Euro rules so much.
Interesting that the GT86 has a reasonable set of ratios and presumably a *slightly* compromised mpg. Toyota clearing focusing on the driver more.
I'm always stunned when journos on PH and Jalopnik admit to never having driven a Lotus, Caterham or other seminal car. If there's one place that should benchmark how a car handles and feels rather than quoting stats it should be here.
I rather fear that the forums will be full of "how much??" when the new TVR isn't below 50k.
Hmm - got to agree with much of what Smilo996 had to say. Why is it that we expect Scarborough Fair levels of impossibility from Lotus? This is a credible and desirable car that travels the road less travelled. It weighs 1300+ kilos because it complies with current safety regs, has NVH levels superior to the Exige S and some power related additions like a LSD. This is about the weight of the carbon tubbed 650S which had a design brief to be as light as possible whilst fulfilling a similar brief. How could it weigh the same as a Fiesta ST, deliver the power of a Carrera S, have the switchgear of an Audi, the desirability of a junior Ferrari and still handle like only first of these really matters? LJK Setright once said he would have a Fiat Uno over any other supermini because it had a moveable ashtray. That was probably not a common requirement in the minds of the 1980's buying public's mind. Lotus need to continue making cars thrill drivers who care about the seat of the pants fingertip joys that provide an experience of driving unavailable elsewhere. Does the Evora 400 provide this? Dan says it does. Only being bought out by VAG and having the luxury to dip in the parts bin and the R&D budget of a company that can sanction halo cars for little or no profit. But then this would be an R8 and, wonderful as that car is, thankfully this is not. The truth it that the Evora 400 is in that small subset of cars that is driveable to a track day where it will be genuinely quick but still useable as a daily driver. That is quite an achievement and the world is a better place that such a car has made production, even for those of us who cannot afford it. And for all the calls for another Esprit, this car is much better resolved and provides a value for performance that far exceeds that brief. Well done Lotus.
Toaster said:
I think some of you need a reality check, ignorance along with opinions often causes bemusement (no offence meant) but do a bit of research. An example of a light weight supercar The MP4-12C weighs 2,868 lb) DIN weight 1,434kg (3,161lb) Dry weight 1,336kg (2,945lb)dry and its made from feathers aka Carbon Fibre New it would cost £100K more
go and look what an Audi TT weighs these days :-) Audi are doing the light weight thing now. if you are too lazy it is 1230kg :-)The Evora being a Lotus should be class leading for weight, My Cayman is sub 1300kg's !
But no they just throw BHP at a 6 yr old car :-( which is a shame knowing what could be done.
Lets hope the CUP 400 brings a bit of weight off when it arrives.
Moulder said:
I test drove an Evora S and didn't come away thinking that was a bit slow or that didn't handle very well. To me it just wasn't a 60k car. Obviously this is subjective but adding 15% to the price to make it a bit quicker is neither here nor there as that wasn't where I (or judging from the comments of most other people) felt it lacked.
Out of curiousity, do you think of a Golf Gti as a £30k car or a Fiesta ST as a £20k car, or (no offence), like most of pistonheads are you 15 years behind the actual cost of cars today?I think you are being a bit harsh saying 15% to the price to make it just a bit quicker as they have apparently spent a lot of effort working on the areas that most people think it lacked (access, interior quality).
Incidentally, to the PH writers, as balance to bemoaning Lotus' flimsy switchgear, can you start berating Porsche and labouring their reviews with criticism of the ridiculous number of buttons and switches that are apparently needed on a focussed drivers car?
People are complaining that this car is heavy, but that's only in comparison to the Cayman and 911, where the Evora is a similar weight. It's a credit to Porsche that their cars are unusually light.
For every other sports car out there, the Evora and the Porsches are light. F-Type, R8, Corvette etc are all significantly heavier and all are strict 2 seaters. Didn't the Espirit hit 1400kg too?
- The Evora 400 outperforms the Cayman as well as being nicer to drive;
- it matches the GT4 (which you can't buy anyway) which most people are speccing to £70-80k, incidentally, and which people will be paying £10-20k premiums for if they can't buy one from Porsche;
- it is £10k cheaper than a BASIC Carrera 2S - chuck in some options like full leather, PCM, sports suspension and seats etc and gap will widen considerably.
- it matches the track pace of an Exige V6 while offering far superior interior space and refinement.
Yet people still bleat that it's expensive and heavy...
For every other sports car out there, the Evora and the Porsches are light. F-Type, R8, Corvette etc are all significantly heavier and all are strict 2 seaters. Didn't the Espirit hit 1400kg too?
- The Evora 400 outperforms the Cayman as well as being nicer to drive;
- it matches the GT4 (which you can't buy anyway) which most people are speccing to £70-80k, incidentally, and which people will be paying £10-20k premiums for if they can't buy one from Porsche;
- it is £10k cheaper than a BASIC Carrera 2S - chuck in some options like full leather, PCM, sports suspension and seats etc and gap will widen considerably.
- it matches the track pace of an Exige V6 while offering far superior interior space and refinement.
Yet people still bleat that it's expensive and heavy...
It's encouraging that the Lotus buyers are writing in to express support. Gales has had to do something, but it would be surprising if this car saw much success. The original Evora was handicapped by lots of discounting and Bahar's gladhanding, so the values dropped. Gales is stuck with outdated stock - the analogy of the Evora's looks with Joan Collins' Dynasty shoulder pads is quite apt. I drove an original and was not that fussed, it didn't feel like £60k worth.
Gorbyrev said:
And for all the calls for another Esprit, this car is much better resolved and provides a value for performance that far exceeds that brief. Well done Lotus.
and?The Cayman offers better value than a 991...or a 918
Brands of this staure demand something aspirational and halo providing.
The Cayman is what it is because of the 911 range... it's development from the top down, stuff learnt from 959/918 has and will make itself felt throughout the lower models.
Lotus appear to be doing the reverse....
PorscheGT4 said:
go and look what an Audi TT weighs these days :-) Audi are doing the light weight thing now. if you are too lazy it is 1230kg :-)
The Evora being a Lotus should be class leading for weight, My Cayman is sub 1300kg's !
But no they just throw BHP at a 6 yr old car :-( which is a shame knowing what could be done.
Lets hope the CUP 400 brings a bit of weight off when it arrives.
And have you actually weighed the cayman? there is not a single Porsche that I have known to actually be weighed that has not come in significantly above the claimed factory weight. Assuming you did add back aircon and radio as most do on the Cayman R, there is no way that car is sub 1300kg if it's standard.The Evora being a Lotus should be class leading for weight, My Cayman is sub 1300kg's !
But no they just throw BHP at a 6 yr old car :-( which is a shame knowing what could be done.
Lets hope the CUP 400 brings a bit of weight off when it arrives.
The Evora is probably too heavy by 50kg ish at 1395kg but assuming Lotus are being accurate with their weights, there is very little around that is going to be much lighter than that.
Unfortunately for Lotus, most buyers of cars in that price range tend to consider badge and interior switchgear quality as (far) more important than the actual driving dynamics.
Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 28th July 10:41
The guy next to me at work is a Porsche fanboi - he can recognize every variant of the 911 just by the side indicator lamps, and stares at pictures of them doe-eyed and dribbling slightly. Ok, maybe that's an exaggeration, but genuinely he sees something in the Porsche that, try as I might, I just cannot see. He's so tuned into the styling that what I see as a boring, anodyne profile is just background noise to him - he gets a kick out of the little variations, the small details that frankly I don't care about.
To me, the original Evora was OK in photos - sometimes awesome but occasionally revealing a slightly awkward line. In the flesh though, it works, and now when I see one I get that Top Gear style fizz that says: this is a special car. Owners report that they get a lot of attention and there are some lovely pictures of their cars now that people have got used to the shape. Very few people seem to come away from a test drive with anything but praise. The new one sharpens up the styling and avoids falling into the bland mass-produced sportscar mould that others do (seriously, when the GT86, Cayman and 370Z get together, how do people avoid falling asleep?).
So - when they have one at our local Lotus dealer, we're going to take his 9-something-something for a run, pop over for a test drive of Hethel's finest and see how the two actually compare. I don't for a moment believe it'll destroy his love affair with Porsche, and I don't think he'll convert me to the way of Stuttgart, but it seems to me we can split the difference and treat them as genuine rivals. That's a good place to be.
To me, the original Evora was OK in photos - sometimes awesome but occasionally revealing a slightly awkward line. In the flesh though, it works, and now when I see one I get that Top Gear style fizz that says: this is a special car. Owners report that they get a lot of attention and there are some lovely pictures of their cars now that people have got used to the shape. Very few people seem to come away from a test drive with anything but praise. The new one sharpens up the styling and avoids falling into the bland mass-produced sportscar mould that others do (seriously, when the GT86, Cayman and 370Z get together, how do people avoid falling asleep?).
So - when they have one at our local Lotus dealer, we're going to take his 9-something-something for a run, pop over for a test drive of Hethel's finest and see how the two actually compare. I don't for a moment believe it'll destroy his love affair with Porsche, and I don't think he'll convert me to the way of Stuttgart, but it seems to me we can split the difference and treat them as genuine rivals. That's a good place to be.
It's a 4 seat GT, not a mini-sports car, 'course it's going to be in the 13-400 zone, they all are, even with CF.
It's cheap for the performance, light for the class and more striking than its rivals, imo.
I can't understand why a bunch of car enthusiasts are more concerned with a bit of switchgear or whether the carpets are the wrong colour.
It's cheap for the performance, light for the class and more striking than its rivals, imo.
I can't understand why a bunch of car enthusiasts are more concerned with a bit of switchgear or whether the carpets are the wrong colour.
Moulder said:
I test drove an Evora S and didn't come away thinking that was a bit slow or that didn't handle very well. To me it just wasn't a 60k car. Obviously this is subjective but adding 15% to the price to make it a bit quicker is neither here nor there as that wasn't where I (or judging from the comments of most other people) felt it lacked.
Excellent summary.What's the message? Perhaps it's a simple as "build it, and they will come". In this instance "it" being a car with fundamental appeal to enough customers in the relevant section of the market.
A very good review, well balanced IMHO. I'm surprised by all the negative comments though. Yes Lotus doesn't have the resources to match the competition so what money they do have is spent on the bits that matter to their target market. Yes, that is limited at the moment given how good the competition is but in my view its large enough to sustain the company going forward.
A few facts to show that JMG is doing the right thing and getting results. And this is real, not the marketing fluff of the Bahar era.
The redesigned front end is the solution to the need for better cooling. Looks are subjective I know but they are dictated by the engineering.
They are on target to sell over 3000 cars this year, up from 2000 last year and 1200 the year before.
They are returning to the States with the 400 next year, to be followed by the Roadster version, probably a targa, which is forecast to take half the sales. JMG has already driven the prototype.
There are 50 more dealers compared to this time last year with 20 more planned this year.
Upgrades to both Exige and Elise are being developed for next year, including a pared back entry level Elise to lower the price point.
The new 3-Eleven took over 60 orders in the first days following its announcement at the Goodwood FoS. Most are for the £115,000 race version. Most of the first years production is now sold. It previews a stronger, better quality composite body that is 40% lighter than the GRP previously used. This will extend across the rest of the range.
Lotus will be cash-flow profitable this year and operationally profitable next year.
Whilst they will never shed the 'it's not a Porsche' epithet, it's about time we appreciated what this outstanding British sports car company is managing to achieve under JMGs direction. And keep our fingers crossed.....
A few facts to show that JMG is doing the right thing and getting results. And this is real, not the marketing fluff of the Bahar era.
The redesigned front end is the solution to the need for better cooling. Looks are subjective I know but they are dictated by the engineering.
They are on target to sell over 3000 cars this year, up from 2000 last year and 1200 the year before.
They are returning to the States with the 400 next year, to be followed by the Roadster version, probably a targa, which is forecast to take half the sales. JMG has already driven the prototype.
There are 50 more dealers compared to this time last year with 20 more planned this year.
Upgrades to both Exige and Elise are being developed for next year, including a pared back entry level Elise to lower the price point.
The new 3-Eleven took over 60 orders in the first days following its announcement at the Goodwood FoS. Most are for the £115,000 race version. Most of the first years production is now sold. It previews a stronger, better quality composite body that is 40% lighter than the GRP previously used. This will extend across the rest of the range.
Lotus will be cash-flow profitable this year and operationally profitable next year.
Whilst they will never shed the 'it's not a Porsche' epithet, it's about time we appreciated what this outstanding British sports car company is managing to achieve under JMGs direction. And keep our fingers crossed.....
PorscheGT4 said:
Toaster said:
I think some of you need a reality check, ignorance along with opinions often causes bemusement (no offence meant) but do a bit of research. An example of a light weight supercar The MP4-12C weighs 2,868 lb) DIN weight 1,434kg (3,161lb) Dry weight 1,336kg (2,945lb)dry and its made from feathers aka Carbon Fibre New it would cost £100K more
go and look what an Audi TT weighs these days :-) Audi are doing the light weight thing now. if you are too lazy it is 1230kg :-)The Evora being a Lotus should be class leading for weight, My Cayman is sub 1300kg's !
But no they just throw BHP at a 6 yr old car :-( which is a shame knowing what could be done.
Lets hope the CUP 400 brings a bit of weight off when it arrives.
I don't think weight is the be all and end all by any means, but Lotus have built their brand on being lightweight and they aren't even the lightest in the class.
Robert Elise said:
All cars are being affected by too tall gearing,
TBH I think that's cobblers. With 6 or 7 gears in most manuals now, and 8 or 9 in auto's, it simply makes no sense to say cars are too highly geared. Or are you suggesting first gear is so high it's no longer possible to get away from the traffic lights?
Back in the day people used to get by with 4 gears.
Vee12V said:
@Rober Elise: The GT86 IS compromised by its long gears. It's part of the reasons why it lacks performance even though it packs 200 hp.
doesn't feel that way to me. i haven't looked at the specs at all, it just feels better than other cars as i hop from one to another.the car may have a torque dip, and may need to be revved to release power but that's something else.
i'm not saying it's close ratio, just not as bad as many of today's cars...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff