RE: Roadworks aren't working: PH Blog
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Not strictly true is it?
Move the price up and people will find an alternative. In reality, the actual alternative for the majority is to not make the journey at all but to switch to digital solutions. Those that do would have near empty trains to use off peak.
As we saw when oil was tapping 150, firms took staff off the roads and pushed digital meetings etc.
The massive growth in car ownership and usage way beyond population growth clearly shows that motoring has become cheaper and cheaper and crossed the threshold that meant people could live far more remotely from employment centres. Increasing that cost will not flood other networks but shift use off altogether as usuage is highly elastic.
This ignores the increases in movements of goods and services required.Move the price up and people will find an alternative. In reality, the actual alternative for the majority is to not make the journey at all but to switch to digital solutions. Those that do would have near empty trains to use off peak.
As we saw when oil was tapping 150, firms took staff off the roads and pushed digital meetings etc.
The massive growth in car ownership and usage way beyond population growth clearly shows that motoring has become cheaper and cheaper and crossed the threshold that meant people could live far more remotely from employment centres. Increasing that cost will not flood other networks but shift use off altogether as usuage is highly elastic.
Granted, a bunch of creatives can Skype together equally effectively, if not more so than face to face (and with less risk of Edwardian explorer beards tangling like velcro) but there are other services which require the man or woman (often plus tools, spares and equipment) to be on site and in a quick response period.
If you don't invest in the road network, or try to drive traffic off it through taxation, you are simply tying the economy's shoe laces together.
The M60 and M6 have been 50 for years now over various sections, "Upgrading to managed Motorways", what does that even mean other than setting the cruise for 52 mph and sitting there frustrated, how much is that costing in lost time, add it up and it is significant, a closely regulated 50 versus the normal 80 - 85 mph (GPS, not speedo) speeds most motorwas flow at, 2 am in the morning, empty, 50 mph for no apparent reason.
I can understand if there are real, tangible improvements going on but it seems like the work was putting up the average speed cameras and signs, then cock all since, an explanation for the DOT or whoever should be forthcoming.
I can understand if there are real, tangible improvements going on but it seems like the work was putting up the average speed cameras and signs, then cock all since, an explanation for the DOT or whoever should be forthcoming.
Digga said:
RobGT81 said:
The variable speed limit on the M42 is picked at random, fact.
Taken from BIL's dashcam this morning:Colleague got an SAC for 46 when an M42 variable sign showed 40 for no reason early one morning. So they do work.
J4CKO said:
The M60 and M6 have been 50 for years now over various sections, "Upgrading to managed Motorways", what does that even mean other than setting the cruise for 52 mph and sitting there frustrated, how much is that costing in lost time, add it up and it is significant, a closely regulated 50 versus the normal 80 - 85 mph (GPS, not speedo) speeds most motorwas flow at, 2 am in the morning, empty, 50 mph for no apparent reason.
I can understand if there are real, tangible improvements going on but it seems like the work was putting up the average speed cameras and signs, then cock all since, an explanation for the DOT or whoever should be forthcoming.
"You may not always see us!" I can understand if there are real, tangible improvements going on but it seems like the work was putting up the average speed cameras and signs, then cock all since, an explanation for the DOT or whoever should be forthcoming.
I sometimes use a section of the M42 at a little before 5AM and on a number of occasions they have a 50MPH speed limit set for approximately 1 mile. No roadworks, no traffic, no police. There is no reason for it at all but it forces all the cars on the road at that time to 50 due to the potential of being caught by the cameras. It is really frustrating and is the result of someone not paying attention or just trying to generate income.
As Dan points out in the article the cameras only catch speeding drivers not the ones sitting in the middle lane, using mobile phones, doing their makeup etc.
As Dan points out in the article the cameras only catch speeding drivers not the ones sitting in the middle lane, using mobile phones, doing their makeup etc.
Sheepshanks said:
Colleague got an SAC for 46 when an M42 variable sign showed 40 for no reason early one morning. So they do work.
That's quite worrying. I use the M42 all the time, in all hours.I largely ignore these speed 'restrictions' because they seem completely fictional. I haven't had anything through the post though.
50, 40, 20, National speed limit. All for absolutely no reason, just fk off!
Edited by Baz Tench on Thursday 3rd September 14:54
To clarify something regarding smart motorways and road works; the two aren’t always the same thing. Smart motorways are primarily designed to maximise the available road width at peak times, by using hard shoulder running since motorway widening isn’t an option. This topic has been covered in the other thread (search for Dan’s article about Smart motorways, it’s the thread linked to that).
Regarding the supposed lack of workers visible, again it depends on the scheme scope and extents (covered in earlier posts). A recent example of making use of lane or full closures would be in the M4 / M5 interchange which is one of the more recent Smart motorway schemes. Having not been able to get access to the carriageway for a multitude of maintenance, repair & inspection works since the scheme was finished, there was the opportunity to gather together all the planned works and blitz it through a series of closures in a 4 week period.
The result was 17 closures of the various stretches of road in the 4 weeks, to facilitate works including:
grass cutting, drainage clearance, resurfacing & joint repairs, structure inspections, scheme works, barrier repairs, street lighting maintenance, repairs to matrix signs and traffic loops, pavement surveys, asbestos surveys – the list goes on. The busiest night had 66 people working within the closure to complete these activities.
On a separate note, even full closures aren’t full proof in terms of road worker safety. Recently we received a safety briefing following an incident in another area of the UK, where a total closure (junction to junction) was on for a night time demolition of an overbridge. A crash mat was laid below the bridge for it to fall onto, a safe working zone etc were all there. However, a member of the public decided to drive the wrong way down the motorway through the closure, at regular motorway speed, hit the crash mat, vaulted over it and crashed into the verge barrier a couple of metres away from where some operatives were assembled. There's only so much you can plan for IMO.
Regarding the supposed lack of workers visible, again it depends on the scheme scope and extents (covered in earlier posts). A recent example of making use of lane or full closures would be in the M4 / M5 interchange which is one of the more recent Smart motorway schemes. Having not been able to get access to the carriageway for a multitude of maintenance, repair & inspection works since the scheme was finished, there was the opportunity to gather together all the planned works and blitz it through a series of closures in a 4 week period.
The result was 17 closures of the various stretches of road in the 4 weeks, to facilitate works including:
grass cutting, drainage clearance, resurfacing & joint repairs, structure inspections, scheme works, barrier repairs, street lighting maintenance, repairs to matrix signs and traffic loops, pavement surveys, asbestos surveys – the list goes on. The busiest night had 66 people working within the closure to complete these activities.
On a separate note, even full closures aren’t full proof in terms of road worker safety. Recently we received a safety briefing following an incident in another area of the UK, where a total closure (junction to junction) was on for a night time demolition of an overbridge. A crash mat was laid below the bridge for it to fall onto, a safe working zone etc were all there. However, a member of the public decided to drive the wrong way down the motorway through the closure, at regular motorway speed, hit the crash mat, vaulted over it and crashed into the verge barrier a couple of metres away from where some operatives were assembled. There's only so much you can plan for IMO.
Cameras everywhere... cones everywhere... and usually sod all work being done, not a crew in sight for miles! Had this on the M3 recently, nearly fell asleep at the wheel through not only tiredness but sheer boredom. I would have got off and used the much more interesting A31, but the bds had sealed most of the exits all the way to the M25! The "smart motorway" is nothing more and nothing less than a means of control. In this police state we call Great Britain, our cars are the last vestige of autonomy we have - and so our freedom to use them is being eroded...
Foppo said:
What I don't follow why most roadworks take forever to finish.
Pay the people the right money and work 24/7 get it done.
We all pay enough in general taxes don't we?
Gawd almighty. Go and read the damn thread, in particular fuelracer's posts - then think about the government's budget deficit. You must have heard of it...?Pay the people the right money and work 24/7 get it done.
We all pay enough in general taxes don't we?
The 'active' traffic management is the part the causes the most fury with me. This is the expensive bit and it is a total failure.
I don't care what any experts say about it, in theory in makes sense to me but in reality it is total horse st.
IT DOESN'T WORK
I drive up and down many of the UK's roads e.g. M1, M42, M40, M62 and the M42 is the worst offender.
So many variable limits set with only 30% use on the road... then suddenly it's NSL, then 40, then NSL then 50 then 40, then 60... I've seen this across three gantries.
Luckily it is easy to work out where the scameras are by looking at the opposite lane gantries, but then you have to deal with the sudden brakers. Also people need to look out for HADECS as seen on the M1 junction 27-28, but they are reasonably easy to spot with the 3x joint white CCTV looking cameras that are around 50-100 yards before the HADECS system. Note that HADCECS is switched on permanently which itself is another scam.
These 50mph average limit zones are so dangerous, people don't pay attention, have no lane management, drive FAR too close, truckers get more annoyed than most and drive really close, it's hard to move to the inside lane during busy periods as people drive to close, are frustrated and don't let others in... total farce.
st
I don't care what any experts say about it, in theory in makes sense to me but in reality it is total horse st.
IT DOESN'T WORK
I drive up and down many of the UK's roads e.g. M1, M42, M40, M62 and the M42 is the worst offender.
So many variable limits set with only 30% use on the road... then suddenly it's NSL, then 40, then NSL then 50 then 40, then 60... I've seen this across three gantries.
Luckily it is easy to work out where the scameras are by looking at the opposite lane gantries, but then you have to deal with the sudden brakers. Also people need to look out for HADECS as seen on the M1 junction 27-28, but they are reasonably easy to spot with the 3x joint white CCTV looking cameras that are around 50-100 yards before the HADECS system. Note that HADCECS is switched on permanently which itself is another scam.
These 50mph average limit zones are so dangerous, people don't pay attention, have no lane management, drive FAR too close, truckers get more annoyed than most and drive really close, it's hard to move to the inside lane during busy periods as people drive to close, are frustrated and don't let others in... total farce.
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C.A.R. said:
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but has anyone mentioned Japan in these comments?
It's a very different culture but what we can learn from their infrastructure maintenance is the shear level of efficiency. An old record now for sure, but in the week after the 2011 earthquake a section of motorway was rebuilt - and open.
The UK is so full of health and safety "executives" intent on prolonging otherwise menial tasks with constant risk assessments that we've lost sight of the end goal. Plastic "experts" whose only real talent is the provision of excuses for poor performance.
All in my opinion of course.
I'm guessing you haven't been to Japan then! Whenever there are roadworks, or hedge trimming, anything like that, they have as many people waving glowsticks/warning you about the dangers as they have doing the actual work it is madness.It's a very different culture but what we can learn from their infrastructure maintenance is the shear level of efficiency. An old record now for sure, but in the week after the 2011 earthquake a section of motorway was rebuilt - and open.
The UK is so full of health and safety "executives" intent on prolonging otherwise menial tasks with constant risk assessments that we've lost sight of the end goal. Plastic "experts" whose only real talent is the provision of excuses for poor performance.
All in my opinion of course.
Also, their motorways are private toll roads, so there is more incentive to keep them open.
fuelracer496 said:
elementad said:
I would rather get credible firms from all over the EU to bid for the work. Cost and timescale then put it to online public vote.
Current M62 timescale of 3 years is an absolute joke and I'm not even going to mention the glacial progress being made.
I'm not even sure there is actual proof that 50mph in all lanes makes things safer. Certainly makes it more difficult getting in lane and causes driver frustration.
The way maintenance contracts, and indeed the road networks are run in Europe are quite different to the UK. The growing pains experienced by bringing in a new firm would possibly lead to other issues. Having used sub-contractors from abroad for specialist elements in recent times, it's not ideal in terms of progressing, certainly when you're on site and trying to sort out an issue urgently.Current M62 timescale of 3 years is an absolute joke and I'm not even going to mention the glacial progress being made.
I'm not even sure there is actual proof that 50mph in all lanes makes things safer. Certainly makes it more difficult getting in lane and causes driver frustration.
The change from the Highways Agency to Highways England, long term should lead to some improvement by way of the funding stream being a larger pot over a longer period, as historically it was a year by year deal and when schemes are up to a year in design and over a year in construction.
Here's a suggestion for saving money. Don't order any more cones in this FY's budget
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