RE: Porsche Cayman GT4 vs. Lotus Exige V6 Cup
Discussion
leglessAlex said:
The standard Exige is £54k and considerably faster than most two seat coupes at that price. Only the Cup has one year, the standard Exige has a three year warranty.
Your 'not special enough' comment holds up on paper but not, it seems, in the real world. As I said earlier, it drew with the Huayra for EVO Car of the Year and that doesn't tend to happen unless it's a very special car.
One issue with the Lotus is that most people will want a normal car for the mundane stuff alongside their Lotus. This means your average Lotus buyer has to have the money for the extra car and also the larger property to keep them on. One of the big benefits of a Porsche is that you can run it very easily as your only car so you actually need much less money. Your 'not special enough' comment holds up on paper but not, it seems, in the real world. As I said earlier, it drew with the Huayra for EVO Car of the Year and that doesn't tend to happen unless it's a very special car.
Living in central London I know plenty of chaps with 911s and Caymens as they want a fun car but it has to be parked on the street. The few people I know with Lotuses have them as second cars and own garages in town.
I know that if I didn't have off street parking and could only have one car then I'd buy a Porsche as it has to be the best all rounder that its remotely possible to buy. But I'm lucky and am able to be more selective and chose more focusses sports cars that aren't compromised for living outside, commuting and shopping.
bobo said:
HokumPokum said:
yes. the gear ratios... it is the cherry on top. if that's the only issue.................
you know how good that product is.
keep your pink g string on old chap! you know how good that product is.
its just a discussion.
i didnt write this article that shows how some older lotus product built by turnip farmers powered by a camery v6 and diesel g box can live with porsches finest thing since sliced bread ! i do wonder how the cheaper v6 won joint ecoty along with a Pagani even though it 'eats its rears' lol
fair enough. i like lotus cars and I am angling to add one. They offer so much fun on track and are proven compared to the newer crop of track day specials. as ever I think their best product could be even more appealing. Anyways, the current driving experience is a world away from that of the sanitised porsches, which must be very satisfying for track/ sports car fans to own.DonkeyApple said:
One issue with the Lotus is that most people will want a normal car for the mundane stuff alongside their Lotus. This means your average Lotus buyer has to have the money for the extra car and also the larger property to keep them on. One of the big benefits of a Porsche is that you can run it very easily as your only car so you actually need much less money.
What proportion of Cayman GT4 drivers do you think will use it every day? I'm another one who thinks this review is very fair, as is the author's response on page 1.
I've only driven the standard Cayman and standard Exige V6 S, but it's pretty obvious quite quickly that the Cayman has the superior underpinnings, being truly mid-engined, whereas the Lotus makes the best of its inferior rear engine starting points (plus the engine's height in the chassis, which can't be ignored). For the standard cars, it's a laughably easy one to call - yes, the Exige lacks the balance of the Cayman, but the way the car is set up more than makes up for it and it's leagues ahead of the Porsche in terms of driving enjoyment. Same for the Evora - a huge step on from a standard Porsche in driving terms. From this and other reviews is seems that where the comparison gets closer is when Porsche really try to make a driver's car, which is when their subtle engineering superiority can shine through, but sadly (or luckily for Lotus!) that's a very rare thing indeed for Porsche; in fact so rare that the GT4 sold out immediately!
I've only driven the standard Cayman and standard Exige V6 S, but it's pretty obvious quite quickly that the Cayman has the superior underpinnings, being truly mid-engined, whereas the Lotus makes the best of its inferior rear engine starting points (plus the engine's height in the chassis, which can't be ignored). For the standard cars, it's a laughably easy one to call - yes, the Exige lacks the balance of the Cayman, but the way the car is set up more than makes up for it and it's leagues ahead of the Porsche in terms of driving enjoyment. Same for the Evora - a huge step on from a standard Porsche in driving terms. From this and other reviews is seems that where the comparison gets closer is when Porsche really try to make a driver's car, which is when their subtle engineering superiority can shine through, but sadly (or luckily for Lotus!) that's a very rare thing indeed for Porsche; in fact so rare that the GT4 sold out immediately!
DonkeyApple said:
One issue with the Lotus is that most people will want a normal car for the mundane stuff alongside their Lotus. This means your average Lotus buyer has to have the money for the extra car and also the larger property to keep them on. One of the big benefits of a Porsche is that you can run it very easily as your only car so you actually need much less money.
Living in central London I know plenty of chaps with 911s and Caymans as they want a fun car but it has to be parked on the street. The few people I know with Lotuses have them as second cars and own garages in town.
I know that if I didn't have off street parking and could only have one car then I'd buy a Porsche as it has to be the best all rounder that its remotely possible to buy. But I'm lucky and am able to be more selective and chose more focused sports cars that aren't compromised for living outside, commuting and shopping.
I can't really disagree with any of that. It does seem to be what Gales is aiming to change though, better quality control so less rattles/breakages, lower and narrower sills so they are easier to get into and out of, and then more dealers so people can actually experience these changes. Living in central London I know plenty of chaps with 911s and Caymans as they want a fun car but it has to be parked on the street. The few people I know with Lotuses have them as second cars and own garages in town.
I know that if I didn't have off street parking and could only have one car then I'd buy a Porsche as it has to be the best all rounder that its remotely possible to buy. But I'm lucky and am able to be more selective and chose more focused sports cars that aren't compromised for living outside, commuting and shopping.
kambites said:
What proportion of Cayman GT4 drivers do you think will use it every day?
I don't know anyone in central London who uses a car everyday anyway. They are there for the weekend. But I guess you are suggesting that unlike normal Caymans these particular ones will be treated more like investments than consumables? But people are arguing that it is an everyday car that can be used as such so maybe they do plan to use them?
leglessAlex said:
HokumPokum said:
This makes a lot of sense.
Exige (cup or otherwise) is a good car but too expensive for what it is. The 1-year warranty isn't a good start but that's not the main issue. The gearbox and engine is. If you want to charge more at least throw in the sequential........ the toyota engine/gearbox combo whilst reliable and cheap to replace just isn't special enough.
good thing they only sell so few. otherwise prices would have to adjust.
The standard Exige is £54k and considerably faster than most two seat coupes at that price. Only the Cup has one year, the standard Exige has a three year warranty. Exige (cup or otherwise) is a good car but too expensive for what it is. The 1-year warranty isn't a good start but that's not the main issue. The gearbox and engine is. If you want to charge more at least throw in the sequential........ the toyota engine/gearbox combo whilst reliable and cheap to replace just isn't special enough.
good thing they only sell so few. otherwise prices would have to adjust.
Your 'not special enough' comment holds up on paper but not, it seems, in the real world. As I said earlier, it drew with the Huayra for EVO Car of the Year and that doesn't tend to happen unless it's a very special car.
DonkeyApple said:
kambites said:
What proportion of Cayman GT4 drivers do you think will use it every day?
I don't know anyone in central London who uses a car everyday anyway. They are there for the weekend. But I guess you are suggesting that unlike normal Caymans these particular ones will be treated more like investments than consumables? But people are arguing that it is an everyday car that can be used as such so maybe they do plan to use them?
leglessAlex said:
DonkeyApple said:
One issue with the Lotus is that most people will want a normal car for the mundane stuff alongside their Lotus. This means your average Lotus buyer has to have the money for the extra car and also the larger property to keep them on. One of the big benefits of a Porsche is that you can run it very easily as your only car so you actually need much less money.
Living in central London I know plenty of chaps with 911s and Caymans as they want a fun car but it has to be parked on the street. The few people I know with Lotuses have them as second cars and own garages in town.
I know that if I didn't have off street parking and could only have one car then I'd buy a Porsche as it has to be the best all rounder that its remotely possible to buy. But I'm lucky and am able to be more selective and chose more focused sports cars that aren't compromised for living outside, commuting and shopping.
I can't really disagree with any of that. It does seem to be what Gales is aiming to change though, better quality control so less rattles/breakages, lower and narrower sills so they are easier to get into and out of, and then more dealers so people can actually experience these changes. Living in central London I know plenty of chaps with 911s and Caymans as they want a fun car but it has to be parked on the street. The few people I know with Lotuses have them as second cars and own garages in town.
I know that if I didn't have off street parking and could only have one car then I'd buy a Porsche as it has to be the best all rounder that its remotely possible to buy. But I'm lucky and am able to be more selective and chose more focused sports cars that aren't compromised for living outside, commuting and shopping.
An Exige just looks and feels massively more exciting than the more generic alternatives but the lack of compromises for everyday convenience clearly restricts volumes.
kambites said:
I'm only guessing but I suspect the majority of owners will have another car that they use for more miles than the Porsche. Which is a bit baffling to me because I couldn't imaging buying something as practical as a Cayman or an Exige as anything other than a daily driver, but each to their own I guess.
But not everyone drives daily though. Certainly in London where very many of the people who can easily afford toys like this work, they don't drive during the week but only have space and budget for one nice car. DonkeyApple said:
An Exige just looks and feels massively more exciting than the more generic alternatives but the lack of compromises for everyday convenience clearly restricts volumes.
And on a purely selfish point, this is a massive reason some people (me) choose Lotus.They don't want a generic car, but I suppose ultimately Lotus need to appeal to the masses to survive.
Just as Porsche did with the Boxster.
All these tailpipe emissions about volumes, margins, halos and broadening the fan base - everyone is an arm-chair car marketing expert these days! Most here love to think they're one step ahead of the manufacturers all the while queuing up to pay up to £80k for a Cayman just because it has a GT badge on it!
On this forum at least only one thing should matter - how good the thing is to drive.
So many declarations of the GT4's greatness by people who have yet to drive one. A pointless request on PH of course but it really would be an idea to reserve judgement on the GT4's greatness along with the Exige's engine and gearbox until you've had some first hand experience. The reviews of the GT4 are underwhelming by Porsche 'GT' standards and strongly suggest that the GT4 is not quite the car it could be. Most are choosing to ignore all this because of the opportunity to make a few quid. I understand that, I'd have one too if someone was willing to pay me to own a GT4 for 12months. Take the premium potential away and the queue gets much shorter, very quickly. Yet everyone is taking the clamour as proof of the car's brilliance. It is not a valid conclusion.
Judged purely against 'how good is it to drive?' the unloved Cayman GTS would be selling more strongly and the GT4 would be selling well at list price.
On this forum at least only one thing should matter - how good the thing is to drive.
So many declarations of the GT4's greatness by people who have yet to drive one. A pointless request on PH of course but it really would be an idea to reserve judgement on the GT4's greatness along with the Exige's engine and gearbox until you've had some first hand experience. The reviews of the GT4 are underwhelming by Porsche 'GT' standards and strongly suggest that the GT4 is not quite the car it could be. Most are choosing to ignore all this because of the opportunity to make a few quid. I understand that, I'd have one too if someone was willing to pay me to own a GT4 for 12months. Take the premium potential away and the queue gets much shorter, very quickly. Yet everyone is taking the clamour as proof of the car's brilliance. It is not a valid conclusion.
Judged purely against 'how good is it to drive?' the unloved Cayman GTS would be selling more strongly and the GT4 would be selling well at list price.
twinturban said:
All these tailpipe emissions about volumes, margins, halos and broadening the fan base - everyone is an arm-chair car marketing expert these days! Most here love to think they're one step ahead of the manufacturers all the while queuing up to pay up to £80k for a Cayman just because it has a GT badge on it!
On this forum at least only one thing should matter - how good the thing is to drive.
So many declarations of the GT4's greatness by people who have yet to drive one. A pointless request on PH of course but it really would be an idea to reserve judgement on the GT4's greatness along with the Exige's engine and gearbox until you've had some first hand experience. The reviews of the GT4 are underwhelming by Porsche 'GT' standards and strongly suggest that the GT4 is not quite the car it could be. Most are choosing to ignore all this because of the opportunity to make a few quid. I understand that, I'd have one too if someone was willing to pay me to own a GT4 for 12months. Take the premium potential away and the queue gets much shorter, very quickly. Yet everyone is taking the clamour as proof of the car's brilliance. It is not a valid conclusion.
Judged purely against 'how good is it to drive?' the unloved Cayman GTS would be selling more strongly and the GT4 would be selling well at list price.
Huh? The GTS is selling very well (for a Cayman), and the GT4 would easily sell out to enthusiasts alone. On this forum at least only one thing should matter - how good the thing is to drive.
So many declarations of the GT4's greatness by people who have yet to drive one. A pointless request on PH of course but it really would be an idea to reserve judgement on the GT4's greatness along with the Exige's engine and gearbox until you've had some first hand experience. The reviews of the GT4 are underwhelming by Porsche 'GT' standards and strongly suggest that the GT4 is not quite the car it could be. Most are choosing to ignore all this because of the opportunity to make a few quid. I understand that, I'd have one too if someone was willing to pay me to own a GT4 for 12months. Take the premium potential away and the queue gets much shorter, very quickly. Yet everyone is taking the clamour as proof of the car's brilliance. It is not a valid conclusion.
Judged purely against 'how good is it to drive?' the unloved Cayman GTS would be selling more strongly and the GT4 would be selling well at list price.
PorscheGT4 said:
these are not made up comments
the service after a track day was from a Lotus dealer, one can only go on dealers advice esp if one wants to keep the very small 1 year warranty.
If that was wrong Lotus need to keep tabs on their dealers !
Still one year still sucks over the GT4's 3 year.
the eating rear tyres is from 2 Motorsport outfits, and not made up one bit, ie people who use and set up these cars for a living on track.
Only interesting as I do fancy the 2017 Charged cooled car, and now starting to get advice from people who REALLY use them.
when I tracked my S2 a set of tyres lasted ages, in fact the only reason to change was they went off at the front, causing understeer, not because tyres were worn.
This high C of G seems to pop up a lot, esp on the new 3-11
Better to get advice from people who race over blinkerd Lotus fan boys ;-p
In fairness, you shouldn't be throwing 'fan boy' around. You are so defensive of the GT4 that you even slate the GT3 continuously in the Porsche forums. Your constant attack mode is pretty tiring to read, and it's disappointing to see you appear to derive so much satisfaction out of your attempts to make people feel bad about their cars (unless it's a GT4, of course).the service after a track day was from a Lotus dealer, one can only go on dealers advice esp if one wants to keep the very small 1 year warranty.
If that was wrong Lotus need to keep tabs on their dealers !
Still one year still sucks over the GT4's 3 year.
the eating rear tyres is from 2 Motorsport outfits, and not made up one bit, ie people who use and set up these cars for a living on track.
Only interesting as I do fancy the 2017 Charged cooled car, and now starting to get advice from people who REALLY use them.
when I tracked my S2 a set of tyres lasted ages, in fact the only reason to change was they went off at the front, causing understeer, not because tyres were worn.
This high C of G seems to pop up a lot, esp on the new 3-11
Better to get advice from people who race over blinkerd Lotus fan boys ;-p
Edited by PorscheGT4 on Tuesday 8th September 12:08
Back on topic, i like the Exige V6 but ultimately couldn't put all my faith in it reliability wise. The interior is also a little too bare; i'm not kidding myself, i do occasional track days, so i like the creature comforts that the Porsche GT3/GT4 models offer in addition to raw performance.
The Exige V6 may use up tyres on track in comparison to the Elises, but this is natural for a heavier car. With optimised geometry, i can't see there being much of a difference between the Exige and a Porsche. Let's also remember a standard Exige V6 is way, way cheaper - plenty of tyres!
hondansx said:
In fairness, you shouldn't be throwing 'fan boy' around. You are so defensive of the GT4 that you even slate the GT3 continuously in the Porsche forums. Your constant attack mode is pretty tiring to read, and it's disappointing to see you appear to derive so much satisfaction out of your attempts to make people feel bad about their cars (unless it's a GT4, of course).
Back on topic, i like the Exige V6 but ultimately couldn't put all my faith in it reliability wise. The interior is also a little too bare; i'm not kidding myself, i do occasional track days, so i like the creature comforts that the Porsche GT3/GT4 models offer in addition to raw performance.
The Exige V6 may use up tyres on track in comparison to the Elises, but this is natural for a heavier car. With optimised geometry, i can't see there being much of a difference between the Exige and a Porsche. Let's also remember a standard Exige V6 is way, way cheaper - plenty of tyres!
Don't feed MrD!Back on topic, i like the Exige V6 but ultimately couldn't put all my faith in it reliability wise. The interior is also a little too bare; i'm not kidding myself, i do occasional track days, so i like the creature comforts that the Porsche GT3/GT4 models offer in addition to raw performance.
The Exige V6 may use up tyres on track in comparison to the Elises, but this is natural for a heavier car. With optimised geometry, i can't see there being much of a difference between the Exige and a Porsche. Let's also remember a standard Exige V6 is way, way cheaper - plenty of tyres!
I have a standard V6 Exige, traded up from a modified S2. It is flipping brilliant basically and compared to my old Exige it is miles ahead. Don't get me wrong, I find a GT4 extremely desirable in fact it's the only car that Porsche make that I'd actually want to buy. If I had 80k, which is what one costs when it's spec'd properly. And they offered a good finance deal. Whereas I could, just, using a combination of Man maths and the current lotus 50:50 finance deal afford a V6 spec'd as I want it with a one off paint job which I adore. Comes with a 3 yr warranty, servicing and the warranty will still be ok if I do the odd trackday. And Silverstone dealership are great to deal with.
Anyone thinking of pulling the trigger on a V6 should just crack on and do it. There will always be an upgraded model being speculated on, this is lotus after all but the current one is great and I honestly think the 400 if it ever arrives is going to cost a chunk more money. Whereas the current car is a performance bargain!
DonkeyApple said:
kambites said:
I'm only guessing but I suspect the majority of owners will have another car that they use for more miles than the Porsche. Which is a bit baffling to me because I couldn't imaging buying something as practical as a Cayman or an Exige as anything other than a daily driver, but each to their own I guess.
But not everyone drives daily though. Certainly in London where very many of the people who can easily afford toys like this work, they don't drive during the week but only have space and budget for one nice car. leglessAlex said:
HokumPokum said:
This makes a lot of sense.
Exige (cup or otherwise) is a good car but too expensive for what it is. The 1-year warranty isn't a good start but that's not the main issue. The gearbox and engine is. If you want to charge more at least throw in the sequential........ the toyota engine/gearbox combo whilst reliable and cheap to replace just isn't special enough.
good thing they only sell so few. otherwise prices would have to adjust.
The standard Exige is £54k and considerably faster than most two seat coupes at that price. Only the Cup has one year, the standard Exige has a three year warranty. Exige (cup or otherwise) is a good car but too expensive for what it is. The 1-year warranty isn't a good start but that's not the main issue. The gearbox and engine is. If you want to charge more at least throw in the sequential........ the toyota engine/gearbox combo whilst reliable and cheap to replace just isn't special enough.
good thing they only sell so few. otherwise prices would have to adjust.
Your 'not special enough' comment holds up on paper but not, it seems, in the real world. As I said earlier, it drew with the Huayra for EVO Car of the Year and that doesn't tend to happen unless it's a very special car.
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