RE: McLaren 570S: Review

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I think we should have one separate thread just for cmoose, where he can pass off his wisdom about whatever he feels necessary.

It'd save cluttering up every other thread on PH

[Quickmoose]

I think Cmoose's case is valid (in as much as any subjective point can be).
Emissions and legislation aside...
Does a turbo charged car offer the thrills of a NA one?....horses for courses? thrust vs progression? take your pick...
Does pulling a lever/pressing a button and having seamless/relentless thrust engage/entertain more/less than taking a hand off the wheel, pressing a pedal, moving a stick, matching the revs, releasing a pedal and putting the hand back on the wheel?.....horses for courses again surely?

Combing the two points above only provides a new permutation of subjective preference.

My personal opinion is on the whole that anyone under 30, will prefer the Playstation instant gratification of button pressing and thrust.
Most drivers older than that will prefer having more involvement.
A huge generalisation I know as there are probably many thousands of drivers of either age range who prefer the other or who enjoy moving with the times and enjoying both types of experience...

I'm 43, love my PS3 with Logitech wheel and buttons.
yet to experience a real world version of it....
I know I LOVE a manual
I think I'll love a modern auto also...
cos it's different....not worse...or better...

[sideways sid]

Just my 2p worth re the auto/manual debate, but consider context. As cars get quicker, the time taken to change gear manually has a big impact on progress.

A half-second manual gearchange in a low-fives-to-sixty sports car 20 years ago, when the alternative might have been a three or four-speed autobox wasn't seen as an impediment, as the five or six ratios in the manual box, would have made for more enjoyable AND faster progress.

A half-second manual gearchange in a low-threes-to-sixty sports car today, when the alternative is a fraction of that with six/seven ratios in the auto / automated manual box, would produce in most cases I guess) less enjoyable AND slower progress.

BTW, I love the 570S and would order one if I could afford to do so.

[spyker138]

I think many people miss the possibility that most people buying this type of car have a lot of choice and usually have many such cars and are less worried about the intricate logic many people on here do.

I love manuals and NA engines and have cars that were designed that way and perform brilliantly at what they are, but are not perfect. I may get a McLaren too (12C for me), but given they are (or were) my hero F1 company I would only want and expect them to design a car around the latest technology and resemble recent race car technology. A 2015 McLaren with a manual would make no sense.

Ditto a 458/488. But maybe Ferrari should have a front engined V12 with a manual option because that's in its DNA too.

But I could be wrong. I hated Bentley putting a six speed in the Arnage, because a slushy 4 speed suited the engine, and I refuse to change the bad old 4 speed Moss box in my XK120 for a modern replacement, cos that's what it should have, and I love my Spyker manual change, because its such an 'analogue' car. There is no right answer, but to me a McLaren should be just as they are doing it - good for them.

[sideways sid]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I was going to respond to the subject matter, but see that you have quite a history of lengthy and largely pointless argument, which I frankly can't be arsed with.

Ah'm Oot!

[Quickmoose]

I think the performance you experience and are prepared/able to use on the road vs the stats on paper is a very worthy point to make personally.

track work would be different... but this is a road car right?

[Boshly]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It might not be compelling but he makes a fair point.

Your posting style is not conducive to me, and obviously a few others, to enter into a reasoned and interesting discussion.

I would go so far as to say to a couple of other posters you've been downright rude.

I won't be 'debating' anything further.

[DonkeyApple]

Quickmoose said:

I think Cmoose's case is valid (in as much as any subjective point can be).
Emissions and legislation aside...
Does a turbo charged car offer the thrills of a NA one?....horses for courses? thrust vs progression? take your pick...
Does pulling a lever/pressing a button and having seamless/relentless thrust engage/entertain more/less than taking a hand off the wheel, pressing a pedal, moving a stick, matching the revs, releasing a pedal and putting the hand back on the wheel?.....horses for courses again surely?

Combing the two points above only provides a new permutation of subjective preference.

My personal opinion is on the whole that anyone under 30, will prefer the Playstation instant gratification of button pressing and thrust.
Most drivers older than that will prefer having more involvement.
A huge generalisation I know as there are probably many thousands of drivers of either age range who prefer the other or who enjoy moving with the times and enjoying both types of experience...

I'm 43, love my PS3 with Logitech wheel and buttons.
yet to experience a real world version of it....
I know I LOVE a manual
I think I'll love a modern auto also...
cos it's different....not worse...or better...

I would say that you are right but neither of us are. The massive, dominating demand for autos hasn't come from the PlayStation generation at all but from their dads. The very group we would expect to want a more traditional manual box. The market for premium cars is dominated by the over 50s. They have the money and for the last twenty years they have been ticking the auto box until it has reached the point that it would be silly for a manufacturer to even waste time thinking about building a manual option.

And then, of course, we must consider the vaste amount of computing power these modern cars have and the involvement of computers in every single aspect of the car's utility. There isn't a single element of the moving parts which is not part of the 'Borg'. A manually operated part, anywhere in the machine is an afront or an obstacle to this. The reality is that in these types of cars the real engine is the CPU, the mechanical, dirty ICE bit is almost a barely tolerated afront, lashed down, smothered, controlled by the CPU and its jailer the 'turbo'.

There is nothing right or wrong about this and there is no doubting these vehicles are truly amazing but we are today, building cars that are manifestly evolved from say the pre injection days. No computer managed mechanism can ever truly match the tangible feeling of mechanical gear changing or mechanical fueling or the solid thunk of switchgear. But what is interesting is that while we have arrived at this new point of the all enveloping and controlling CPU they are synthesising as many of the elements of mechanical parts that combine to excite our senses. They use the CPU to replace lost engine noise, steering feel, character etc etc that the CPU has taken away in the first instance.

In some regards these modern cars are like the vegetarian restaraunt that sells dishes made to look like meat dishes. It's absolutely fine but we all know that a bacon butty is bad for health, the planet, everything yet we know nothing synthesised or controlled can ever truly match or replace it.

With the Maccas, while adding a turbo clearly helps with managing tax and emmission requirements globally not just today but tomorrow and being a fledgling firm meant they had to future proof as much as possible I also suspect that the massive control of the engine a turbo grants to the CPU does fit with big Ron's way of thinking and controlling.

Anyway, enough rambling, for me while I absolutely love these cars I cancelled by 12c order back when they were launching as I learned that these modern cars were more laptop than anything else and this wasn't what excited me.

[Boshly]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hope that helps.

Lastly your comment re 'shooting the messenger as they don't like the message' is close but not quite correct IMHO. I think people may be ignoring your message and any validity it may have as they don't like the messengers attitude and demeanour.

I'm guessing you'll want the last word so please feel free

[ESOG]

i love McLaren and would take one over a Porker or R8 ANY DAY, but Christ this thing is fugly! I'll stick with a MP412c thank you very much!