RE: Lotus Elise 20th Anniversary vs. S1 Elise

[saaby93]

kambites said:

Bebee said:

Horrid hateful car, wish I never bought my S2, had it six years now.

This one

[Diesel Meister]

I can see myself in an Elise. Completely. A kilt? Not so much

I don't have massive issue with Toyota engines either (I have one, albeit not the one that's meant to be there). In fact, it makes perfect sense for me to go for an Elise, or Exige S, as I get the train to work and rarely need 4 seats. Ideal two car would be the sporty one plus something with room for four and a tad more quasi-waftable (ok, maybe not a complete barge).

There's a thread - what would you have to go with your Elise?

I'm sure lots of people will take the spare cash, but there are two many cars (sic) to drive in this scenario and life, despite being the longest thing you'll ever do, remains finite. So pretend you can afford two different and complementary cars...

S2 S/C plus mint vanilla S1 / Exige?
S2 Exige plus 6 pot 3 series?

Go.

Edited by Diesel Meister on Friday 4th December 23:23

[peteratsylvan]

RobM77 said:

along with Brooke, that new ugly thing etc. Is that something to do with SVA? I know the Toyota engine was necessary to sell the Elise in America.

Regardless though, I still think even the heaviest of Elises drive and handle beautifully, and a bit of extra comfort means you can drive them more and enjoy them more often

For me, the owner of the featured car, this ("you can drive and enjoy them more") is the point..... I've owned and loved an S1, which was ultimately sold to accommodate a 340R. After 8 years and some great adventures (Italy for the Mille Miglia was the most ridiculous), the R was finally let go (took me two years to actually bite that bullet) because I have more time now to take weekends and longer breaks away. I even purchased an Elan M100 because the man maths suggested I could maybe justify keeping the 340R, but the M100, whilst impressive, just didn't cut it after the Elise-based cars. So the search for a 'modern' Elise began. A 1.6 made sense, why would I need more power? Of course, I ended up at Hofmanns of Henley who put together an excellent deal for their '20th Anniversary' SC, and I blew the budget into the distance. I'm still discovering just how good the car is, and it will get onto track periodically once I'm completely familiar with it.

When PH announced they were looking for a nice S1 to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Elise, I offered to take the new one along as a counterpoint - thought it might add a different angle. Dan and Mike were enthusiastic, we had a fun day keeping Tim the photographer busy (and throwing leaves artfully into shot..), and a couple of nice pieces have been published for people's enjoyment (or otherwise!). It was NEVER a 'which is better' story. They are both great, and I have the greatest respect for Adrian, the featured S1 owner who has had his car from new - top man. Mike Duff is right to observe that a DNA test isn't required to confirm these cars' parentage - the new one drives just like a grown up S1.

And I'm looking forward to putting some proper mileage on (it's been to the Derby Dales already) and Le Mans Classic with the Lotus Drivers Club is booked for 2016. Even my long suffering wife has suggested we plan a Lands End to John o'Groats trip, and to follow the Mille Miglia route in the future, too. That, gentlemen of the PH jury, is known as a 'result', as I'm sure you can appreciate!

[pthelazyjourno]

Scuffers said:

bespoke engines are a non-starter these days, the costs are simply staggering, no small manufacture is going to commit to that (and yes, I do realise somebody will say McLaren).

Flat engines are great, BUT, they cost more to make, and are harder to package, you cannot make a flat 6 mid-engined car without some significant compromises, great as it may well be (Subaru have a very nice flat 6).

All that said the issue over engines is not really that hard, there are plenty of OEM engines out there, the trick is getting the right deal on the right engine/powertrain.

Getting back to Lotus, the V6 is already obsolete (it was before Lotus used it) Toyota have moved on, and let's face it, it was never a stellar engine to start with.

I would argue Ford have a pretty decent range of engines available, as do GM (although their small stuff is not that great).

Back to the Elise, I don't think the 'it needs a V6' is a valid argument, a decent 4 pot is fine for a <750Kg's fun car, hell, it does not need to be 300+Hp, 200Hp in a 750Kg's S1 is more than exciting enough.

Move onto the Exige, then yes, I can see the argument for a 2 or 2.5l V6 with 250+ Hp.

then we get to the Evora, please just scrap it and come up with the Esprit, with a V8, no fanniying around with some V6 leftover dog from god knows what.

If McLaren can go from zero to some 1,800 cars a year (2015) with a £170+k car, what's Lotus's excuse?

Pretty sure I read that McLaren threw the best part of £1bn developing the 12C. How much since then? Lotus' excuse is that it doesn't have more than a billion quid and a bunch of super-rich investors.

[pthelazyjourno]

kambites said:

Does anyone buy an Elise as primarily a track car? Especially a modern one? For me they're simply too heavy, too slow, too soft and too... mid-engined. It's the perfect daily driver for me but there's no way I'd take one over a Caterham or similar as a track car.

All of the Elise owners I know do at least 90% of their driving on the road.

Know a couple with Elise track cars, one has both a road only Elise and a 190bhp S1 track slag. Doesn't like Caterhams, does like the Elise. May not be as quick, but they're still bloody good fun.

[Bebee]

L100NYY said:

Bebee said:

Horrid hateful car, wish I never bought my S2, had it six years now.
I just need to keep it a few more years yet to make sure I'm doing the right thing scrapping it.
Too heavy (Compared to the S1)
Too slow (Compared to the Exige V6)
Too ugly
Too unreliable
Too heavy on fuel (Compared to driving it like Mrs Jones from no.32)

Just a bag of st!

I blame the salesman.

Me too

[L100NYY]

Bebee said:

L100NYY said:

Bebee said:

Horrid hateful car, wish I never bought my S2, had it six years now.
I just need to keep it a few more years yet to make sure I'm doing the right thing scrapping it.
Too heavy (Compared to the S1)
Too slow (Compared to the Exige V6)
Too ugly
Too unreliable
Too heavy on fuel (Compared to driving it like Mrs Jones from no.32)

Just a bag of st!

I blame the salesman.

Me too

[Diesel Meister]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

A thousand times this.

The K20A is a lovely 4-banger. sounds great, is strong etc. and is more than enough performance for an Elise type car, whereas I'd probably be a bit annoyed by it in a saloon car. But its still falls short for me in terms of vocal range / tone etc.

Scuffers - I get you. The 2GR-FE is essentially a truck engine, the more utilitarian sister of the 2GR-FSE. It's actually a very-good-if-not-uber-special engine - robust, light and relatively well endowed for its size. It doesn't sound amazing in any factory application and its not really a sporting installation. But it's easy to see that it can be made more aurally interesting / satisfying with some induction / exhaust work and a higher rev limit. A few companies have put the 2GRFE into the S2, although I think it's a bit much work (and certainly overkill in power to weight terms - not that I can talk). But as cmoose says, a flat six would be better for a sporting application in a small car, leaving only Porsche as an option - likely back catalogue only if many you're resolutely in the sub-£20k car bracket.

Maybe a taughtened / lightly "decontented" 986S is what I need...

Would really like a K20a in an S1 /S2 though

[otolith]

The K20A is the only four cylinder engine I remember with any affection. The 2ZZ in my Elise is a similar concept much less well executed and I've never really got the hype about the Rover k-series. Maybe I need to try one of the more powerful variants.

I agree it would be nice if the Elise had a more charismatic sounding engine with more cylinders, but given the other sacrifices the car makes in the name of lightness it would seem a frivolous expenditure of kilograms. The V6 Exige (which I do covet) treads a different path and makes some different compromises.

[Diesel Meister]

otolith said:

The K20A is the only four cylinder engine I remember with any affection. The 2ZZ in my Elise is a similar concept much less well executed and I've never really got the hype about the Rover k-series. Maybe I need to try one of the more powerful variants.

I agree it would be nice if the Elise had a more charismatic sounding engine with more cylinders, but given the other sacrifices the car makes in the name of lightness it would seem a frivolous expenditure of kilograms. The V6 Exige (which I do covet) treads a different path and makes some different compromises.

Agreed on all points (including serious want for the Exige S - if only I have £50k....)

[L100NYY]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I have been fortunate enough to do over 30k miles in the V6 Exige, Evora and Evora S and they all really are fantastic.

Evora N/A (non Supercharged) - a beautiful package but the close ratio gearbox is a mandatory option in my opinion, really sharpens up the car. Amazing chassis, quite special feeling in a baby supercar way and look much better in the flesh than photos suggest. Really rather like them. Nb. Close ratio 'box was standard fitment on later cars.

Evora S - real world pace is properly quick with a chassis that seems un-phased by just about anything and the later cars have a much better interior quality and fruitier exhaust system. Close ratio 'box is standard on all S variants of Evora.

Exige S - V6 engine in this creates a totally different car to the 4cyl previous versions. Yes there is extra weight and heft to the controls so some of the delicacy has been removed but is replaced with phenomenal real world performance. As a drivers car at the money they are really hard to beat and I used it daily too (evenb in the snow) although I can see the impracticality getting in the way of sales in comparison to a Cayman GTS (getting in an out, proximity to passenger etc) but it's certainly great to have the option of a V6 Exige in that marketplace and price point imo.

Manual gearbox in all of the above is not the best out there but certainly not enough to spoil the drive.

[Diesel Meister]

'moose - I take it you've seen the Evora 400 video? I think the original car looks a bit more subtle but the revisions have massively improved the sound of the engine (if a tad contrived in parts).

Here's what my 2GR-FE powered AW11 sounds like (added giggling a no-cost option). No I'm not in it!

[otolith]

When the Evora 400 drivetrain finds its way into the Exige, it's going to be magnificent.

[L100NYY]

Not a fan of the Evora 400 styling, too much going on and a bit aftermarket. A late Evora Sports Racer with 400 running gear would be a lovely thing, Hangar 111 can do the job.

Either that or an Exige 400R would be good. Again, Hangar 111 can do that too.

http://www.hangar111.com/lotus/

[SidewaysSi]

Yep a Komotec upgrade and the car will be really quite something. I loved the Exige V6 - very grown up with stunning damping and the usual Lotus steering. More than quick enough too and it just felt so much more special than a Cayman.

Such a complete car.

[Kolbenkopp]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not that bad either, but agree it isn't stellar in the GT86. Also never going to satisfy your desire for 6 pot musicality. Was the MX3 engine any good ?

But in an Elise I think it would work. They have done a good job IMO setting up the Toyota engines, it would help the CoG a lot, and in a light weight mid engined car it would push along things nicely I think. On paper would also bring it closer to the upcoming Porsche stuff (if that matters).

Gearbox / length of the whole unit could be a problem. And they will probably not have cheap access to the kit. So won't happen :-/.

[Scuffers]

Kolbenkopp said:

Not that bad either, but agree it isn't stellar in the GT86. Also never going to satisfy your desire for 6 pot musicality. Was the MX3 engine any good ?

But in an Elise I think it would work. They have done a good job IMO setting up the Toyota engines, it would help the CoG a lot, and in a light weight mid engined car it would push along things nicely I think. On paper would also bring it closer to the upcoming Porsche stuff (if that matters).

Gearbox / length of the whole unit could be a problem. And they will probably not have cheap access to the kit. So won't happen :-/.

The MX3 V6 sounded like a sewing machine, but was totally powerless (130Hp/115lbft) - interestingly part of the the Mazda 'K' Series.

there is a supercharged 2.3L version giving 217hp/210lbft (Xedos 9) and a 2.5L version giving 175hp (Ford Probe etc).

That all said, that engine is no longer made and never got to EU4.

Flat engines are a bit of a non-starter as they would require longitudinal install with a transaxle, which simply is never going to fit without a complete chassis redesign (not just in length but width too).

All very good talking COG's, but consider the mass of the Rover in the S1 Elise is not exactly high up to start with, probably not as much as the drivers.

[Diesel Meister]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This one.

That's how to do a promo for such a car.


ETA:

Scuffers - I think you only option (other than a K20a or Duratec) would be a smallish V6 (<3 litres, ~190-200bhp, 7.5-8k rpm), given the need to fit in transversely. If you could get it on the tilt it might work. Someone has done the VW narrow angle 3.2 V6. IT sounded suitably epic (it is one of the better sounding V6s, improved by freer breathing) but looked like a huge a mount of work. Overall thought, I think the S1 is better of with a K20, so I'll take one of those plus an Exige S / Evora please Do you still have an S1 Exige?

Edited by Diesel Meister on Sunday 6th December 09:58

[Scuffers]

Diesel Meister said:

This one.

That's how to do a promo for such a car.


ETA:

Scuffers - I think you only option (other than a K20a or Duratec) would be a smallish V6 (<3 litres, ~190-200bhp, 7.5-8k rpm), given the need to fit in transversely. If you could get it on the tilt it might work. Someone has done the VW narrow angle 3.2 V6. IT sounded suitably epic (it is one of the better sounding V6s, improved by freer breathing) but looked like a huge a mount of work. Overall thought, I think the S1 is better of with a K20, so I'll take one of those plus an Exige S / Evora please Do you still have an S1 Exige?

I have no issue with the concept of a small V6 the issues are though that they are always going to be top-heavy compared to an I4.

And yes, I say that VR6 bodge, it was horrendous on so many levels, and ignoring that, they simply don't make the power to justify the weight etc.

We need to get back to what the Elise was originally designed for, a small, lightweight, nimble sports car for fun-days, not a replacement for your everyday car, in that context a small, high reving I4 is the ideal.

[Hooch747]

I drove a couple of Elise's years ago when I sold my 964RS ( let's not go there... ). Loved the steering but the gear change was horrible, a real pain to get in and out and they both felt slow even when you hammered them. Ended up buying a fast Caterham which was much quicker and a lot more fun as well as being only slightly less practical.