RE: Lotus Elise 20th Anniversary vs. S1 Elise

[RobM77]

angelicupstarts said:

Tickle said:

angelicupstarts said:

Tickle said:

angelicupstarts said:

Tickle said:

173kg is a considerable amount on extra weight in a car that's footprint is pretty much the same.

It's like carrying an additional 3 of me in my S1, although my S1 is a bit porkier than an early one on MMC's

you only weigh 57 kg ?? my god if i was that light weight my lotus would fly !

About 61kg at the moment, I can certainly feel the difference on the rare occasions I have a passenger in the Elise!

As a side note to my first comment, I don’t want to sound negative towards Lotus I really wish them all the luck in the world. They do still offer the Club Racer as a lighter option that incorporates all the necessities to meet modern safety regulations.

Lucky thing ... I top out at 106 kg ...it would be interesting to work out how much the extra 45 kg slows my car down ?

153bhp @ 770kg = 199 bhp/ton
153bhp @ 815kg = 188 bhp/ton

(Power: Estimated Power of my car / Weight: SELOC for 111s)

Looks like I would be losing about 11 bhp/ton if I weighed 45kg more, not got a clue what that equates too in 0-60 though.

The un-sprung weight of my car may be a touch more as I am running victories on my 111s, the only lead wheels ever to be produced!

Just tried to work that out ..Im getting that id be almost half a second slower to 60mph ..so over a circuit with lots of twists and turns that could add up to a hefty amount at the end .
victories look good though !

45kg is certainly a noticeable difference in an Elise, although not too severe, particularly because the occupants sit in the middle (in a Caterham the handling balance is totally wrecked by adding a passenger). When it really starts to show imho is the differences between a <70kg passenger and one over 80kg, when the car really struggles - braking and handling particularly. When I had my 2-Eleven I was always swamped by people wanting passenger rides at track days; a 5'7" girl or small bloke would be no problem and I'd just drive as normal, but for anyone much over 80kg I had to alter the way I drove the car and to be honest it wasn't much fun. I once had a very weird, very fast and very unexpected snap oversteer moment with a passenger who I reckon was close to 100kg - it was a kink I'd normally take flat at about 100mph without an issue, but with this guy on board the car decided it didn't like it at all (and neither did my passenger!).

It puts me in complete awe of F1 drivers and how they can drive at the absolute limit of their cars competitively at the start of a race with over 100kg extra weight on board... Also the setup engineers - I presume the changing mass must cause them a fair headache.

[bertie]

David-2pzjy said:

40,000 Elise buyers can't be wrong :-)

Have they really made that many???

On a separate note, an increase of 173kg cant just be some trim and a couple of airbags.

That's something significant in the engine / drivetrain to make that sort of difference surely.

[L100NYY]

bertie said:

David-2pzjy said:

40,000 Elise buyers can't be wrong :-)

Have they really made that many???

On a separate note, an increase of 173kg cant just be some trim and a couple of airbags.

That's something significant in the engine / drivetrain to make that sort of difference surely.

Has been mentioned in more detail in this thread but;

Engine gearbox are significantly heavier
Sound proofing
Air bags

[Diesel Meister]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've only briefly driven a vanilla S2 but feel sort of similar. The want is there for me (small, low weight etc.) but it's certainly not as overwhelming as I'd expect. I think this is down to a couple of things, including:

- Not enough cylinders for me (I like a more complex and mellifluous soundtrack at all speeds - Elise can be throaty and urgent but not special enough for me)
- Whilst the steering is suitably epic, I was less convinced by the other controls - tactility comes from the steering and chassis feel / response mainly, which is nice but I like a bit more satisfaction in the pedals (firm, proportionate response, well placed for rev-matching) and 'box (ideally fast and short of throw, precise mechanical feel etc.)
- At a long-legged 6'2" it can be a bit of a fiddle entering and exiting. Not a deal breaker.

I get that a light, responsive nat-asp 4 cylinder engine is more in keeping with the Elise but I'd prefer an Exige S or Evora for a bit more of an occasion in the engine dept (and, especially in the case of the Evora, more usable on longer trips). I might forgive a Honda-powered example of an S1 / S2, or a 4 cyl Exige though.

That said, I still fancy an S2 Elise SC...

[L100NYY]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

With regards the engine character, or lack of, it really depends on the 'setup' of the particular car.

A standard K series or Toyota engine in the Elise (and Exige) can sound just a bit flat and if I'm honest a tad uninspiring. However, drive one with a sports exhaust/induction kit and or TRD airbox and it totally transforms them, it really does. I know some will say that having to modify it to make it 'right' is missing the point but a lot of these things were and are either factory or dealer fitted official upgrades anyway.

Makes a huge difference to the overall feel and character of the car, it really does.

[bertie]

L100NYY said:

Has been mentioned in more detail in this thread but;

Engine gearbox are significantly heavier
Sound proofing
Air bags

That sound fare more likely.

Having stripped airbags and sound proofing I can't see those adding up to more than 15-20Kg, the other 150kg plus must be chunky mech items.

[L100NYY]

bertie said:

L100NYY said:

Has been mentioned in more detail in this thread but;

Engine gearbox are significantly heavier
Sound proofing
Air bags

That sound fare more likely.

Having stripped airbags and sound proofing I can't see those adding up to more than 15-20Kg, the other 150kg plus must be chunky mech items.

The Toyota engine and gearbox are substantially heavier than the K series

[Scuffers]

since when did the S1 come with 165 front tyres? (they were 185/55R15's)

[L100NYY]

Scuffers said:

since when did the S1 come with 165 front tyres? (they were 185/55R15's)

That was mentioned on page 1, second comment.

[Varn]

The S1 is one of the prettiest cars of recent(ish) times.

Such a shame the S2 (pre or post facelift) is such an eyesore.

[Kolbenkopp]

Perhaps a good time to mention the very interesting documentary again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-TiFKr2yb0

[DS240]

Happy Anniversary.

4 very happy years of Elise S2 (bog standard) ownership.

It still holds a very special pace in my heart and for sheer driver connection and that magical 'feel', it's the best I've ever experienced.

Nearly went to an Exige but swapped the Elise for a Cayman S (987) and I missed the Elise badly. Nice car, but no where near the involvement or fun imo. After 3-4 years, as soon as the Boxster Spyder (987) was announced, I knew this was for me.

I always say it is like a grown up Elise, but I'm not sure that sounds fair to the Elise.

I haven't driven an Elise since selling and would love to do so again. I do scan classified occasionally with mad plans to get an S1 or S2 again. If I had the means, I would instantly go out and get an S1 to own also.

Maybe one day I will return to an Elise.

[HeMightBeBanned]

bertie said:

On a separate note, an increase of 173kg cant just be some trim and a couple of airbags.

That's something significant in the engine / drivetrain to make that sort of difference surely.

Did you read my post on Page 1? I'll help you out and repost it below.

HeMightBeBanned said:

ABS, leather seats and aircon don't really account for the 170kg increase in the weight of the Elise. Oh, and leather seats were always available in the S1. It was an option that almost everyone specced over the standard cloth items. Weight difference must be measured in grams not kilos!

The new car is heavier because of bulkier underpinnings. Things like:

- heavier engine - the K-Series is remarkably light at around 70kg undressed. Not so the Toyota.
- heavier transmission - the Rover PG1 gearbox is a compact and light transmission. I can just about pick one up unassisted. Wouldn't like to try the same with the Toyota 6-speed box
- Supercharger and all the associated plumbing in the Toyota-powered car
- rear subframe - the one on the new car is substantially heavier and, yet, more flexible
- More lardy suspension uprights front and rear, compared with the S1's
- Larger, heavier wishbones

Wheels are pretty heavy on most S2 Elises, although many of the S1 wheels were hardly featherweights (original AWIs and particularly the 'Victory' alloys of the Sport 160).

Then you get on to the added heavy gheyness like interior trim, sound-deadening, electric windows, heated seats, sun visors (ffs) ABS, aircon etc

A problem for Lotus is that lots of people don't see the point of "upgrading" their S1 to the newer heavier car that doesn't really offer very much more of what the S1 excels at - driving pleasure

[Scuffers]

It's a shame they have strayed so far away from the original concept.

Adding 200kgs really is criminal.

[furtive]

story said:

Try to think of a car that has changed so little in the last 20 years as the Lotus Elise

MX5

[Ozzie Osmond]

furtive said:

story said:

Try to think of a car that has changed so little in the last 20 years as the Lotus Elise

MX5

Apart from the fact MX5 is on its 4th generation with an "all new" car recently launched, I'm sure you're right.

Latest version looks like one of the truly great motoring bargains to me.

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

It's a shame they have strayed so far away from the original concept.

Adding 200kgs really is criminal.

They didn't have a lot of choice to be fair. The Toyota engine was necessary for federalisation, which in turn was necessary to make money, and together with its gearbox that new engine contributes to the lion's share of the weight gain. Not only that, but people on forums went on and on about head gasket failure with the k series and I'm sure getting a Toyota engine in the back was good for sales in those terms as well.

[Diesel Meister]

Epic film. Epic early-mid nineties pastel shirts with paisley tie combinations. Epic hair. Slightly eccentric and yet ingenious and pioneering overall. Love the engineering.

Reminds me that I did really lust after the S1 back then, especially reading all magazine coverage although obs I still needed a driving licence at that point

I like to think I "get" the Elise. As in its "proper sports car" in the sense that its about frill-free driving enjoyment in a slightly less compromised package than Caterham-type car. It's also a bit of a miracle considering the backdrop to its gestation (and continuation) over the years.

But I still wish it had an engine note with more acoustic complexity and verve, more subtlety and "tingle". something that is a joy to experience. Also a bit more "peak Porsche" (for want of a clearer and less divisive phrase - call it "RS / GTx" factor, in whatever combination of your favourites that is) in its controls, other than steering. For me, as a road plus occasional track car, that would fill the gaps in an otherwise nicely honed vehicle. You can enjoy the engine note just idling / lugging or when teasing a suggestive side-order of revs to your down-shift on entry to a curve; you can enjoy the tactile pleasures of working firm, progressive, slop-free pedals and stirring the cogs, wrist and elbow. Eff "soft touch" plastics, and electronic toys you don't need.

I guess its difficult to ace all those things on a shoe-string, with off the shelf parts and still have a relatively light and affordable car. I do fancy one though - more obtainable for me than and Exige S or an Evora at this point. And I have a shed to put it in plus a boring A to B car...

£30k+ new is a bit rich though - almost makes the Exige S and Evora look like bargains.

[CABC]

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

It's a shame they have strayed so far away from the original concept.

Adding 200kgs really is criminal.

They didn't have a lot of choice to be fair. The Toyota engine was necessary for federalisation, which in turn was necessary to make money, and together with its gearbox that new engine contributes to the lion's share of the weight gain. Not only that, but people on forums went on and on about head gasket failure with the k series and I'm sure getting a Toyota engine in the back was good for sales in those terms as well.

yep, reality...

Others say the Elise hasn't changed that much over 20 years. I say good. Other cars that have 'progressed' now leave me cold.

[Scuffers]

RobM77 said:

Scuffers said:

It's a shame they have strayed so far away from the original concept.

Adding 200kgs really is criminal.

They didn't have a lot of choice to be fair. The Toyota engine was necessary for federalisation, which in turn was necessary to make money, and together with its gearbox that new engine contributes to the lion's share of the weight gain. Not only that, but people on forums went on and on about head gasket failure with the k series and I'm sure getting a Toyota engine in the back was good for sales in those terms as well.

I simply don't buy that they could have picked another engine apart from the Toyota ship anchor, yes it probably would have had to go in a few kilos here and there for the abs and a few other bits but there's no way that equates to the 200 kilos it's arrived at.