RE: Lotus Elise 20th Anniversary vs. S1 Elise
Discussion
ive had my series one red elise (i call it west ham red because i dont know the real name for the colour) for just over 9 years now and as another owner said its just so hard to replace as it seems to love being thrown around and nothing comes close when going round corners its showing the stone chips from the 16-17k miles ive put on it since i got it so its having a makeover this year (a paint job) as it looks so good when its polished up but i just love it and its the best thing ive ever bought and ive had all sorts of cars in the 33 years ive been driving so roll on lotus keep giving us the good stuff.
Diesel Meister said:
Epic film. Epic early-mid nineties pastel shirts with paisley tie combinations. Epic hair. Slightly eccentric and yet ingenious and pioneering overall. Love the engineering.
Reminds me that I did really lust after the S1 back then, especially reading all magazine coverage although obs I still needed a driving licence at that point
I like to think I "get" the Elise. As in its "proper sports car" in the sense that its about frill-free driving enjoyment in a slightly less compromised package than Caterham-type car. It's also a bit of a miracle considering the backdrop to its gestation (and continuation) over the years.
But I still wish it had an engine note with more acoustic complexity and verve, more subtlety and "tingle". something that is a joy to experience. Also a bit more "peak Porsche" (for want of a clearer and less divisive phrase - call it "RS / GTx" factor, in whatever combination of your favourites that is) in its controls, other than steering. For me, as a road plus occasional track car, that would fill the gaps in an otherwise nicely honed vehicle. You can enjoy the engine note just idling / lugging or when teasing a suggestive side-order of revs to your down-shift on entry to a curve; you can enjoy the tactile pleasures of working firm, progressive, slop-free pedals and stirring the cogs, wrist and elbow. Eff "soft touch" plastics, and electronic toys you don't need.
I guess its difficult to ace all those things on a shoe-string, with off the shelf parts and still have a relatively light and affordable car. I do fancy one though - more obtainable for me than and Exige S or an Evora at this point. And I have a shed to put it in plus a boring A to B car...
£30k+ new is a bit rich though - almost makes the Exige S and Evora look like bargains.
this thread may go the way of fanboys for both sides.Reminds me that I did really lust after the S1 back then, especially reading all magazine coverage although obs I still needed a driving licence at that point
I like to think I "get" the Elise. As in its "proper sports car" in the sense that its about frill-free driving enjoyment in a slightly less compromised package than Caterham-type car. It's also a bit of a miracle considering the backdrop to its gestation (and continuation) over the years.
But I still wish it had an engine note with more acoustic complexity and verve, more subtlety and "tingle". something that is a joy to experience. Also a bit more "peak Porsche" (for want of a clearer and less divisive phrase - call it "RS / GTx" factor, in whatever combination of your favourites that is) in its controls, other than steering. For me, as a road plus occasional track car, that would fill the gaps in an otherwise nicely honed vehicle. You can enjoy the engine note just idling / lugging or when teasing a suggestive side-order of revs to your down-shift on entry to a curve; you can enjoy the tactile pleasures of working firm, progressive, slop-free pedals and stirring the cogs, wrist and elbow. Eff "soft touch" plastics, and electronic toys you don't need.
I guess its difficult to ace all those things on a shoe-string, with off the shelf parts and still have a relatively light and affordable car. I do fancy one though - more obtainable for me than and Exige S or an Evora at this point. And I have a shed to put it in plus a boring A to B car...
£30k+ new is a bit rich though - almost makes the Exige S and Evora look like bargains.
However, as a Lotus fan and someone who loves air cooled 911s, i'd say:
- Lotus switchgear is plastic. But that's never bothered me.
- the engine note from the factory is flat. aftermarket exhaust/induction will fix that to varying degrees depending who you use. it's still a 4 tho.
sports cars are often 4s, the focus is on dynamics
- i find Loti pedals ok, and the best box to heel&toe (for me anyway)
- steering & feel, well Lotus wins that hands down and that's important for some less so others.
overall i find it a blessing that Lotus remain a more analogue experience whereas Porsche have taken a different path.
For road cars i will choose a Lotus plus a complementary barge and enjoy a focused track car as well.
The world would be better if the Porsche engineers were let loose to produce a light, fun driver's car with a flat 6.
CABC - I agree, mostly. A sporting car should be about dynamics. But that, for my taste shouldn't stop at the those things (how it corners, rides, handles; sweet, transparent steering), however crucial they are. Dynamism, in the purely denotative sense, clearly isn't limited to chassis. In the arena of cars its about feel for me - what you experience and how it makes you feel. Input, feedback; precision, proportionality, adjustability and responsiveness. Does it satisfy and encourage you, reward you? Does it make driving *fun*, an event, a ritual, rather than just transport? All of this is what makes it quite subjective.
For my tastes, sound is such huge part of the driving experience and pleasure. A 4-banger, even the most cherished examples (I'm thinking a decent Alfa twin-cam unit or a Honda vtec type-scenario) still lack the ability to feel sufficiently special for me. I can enjoy the relative purity (light, compact, keen and responsive) of the layout, but in the context of a car for enjoyment (which is to me what a sports car is about) lacks aural titillation in an almost unforgivable way for me. Something a bit less ordinary would be better. I've always liked BMWs and Porsches (particularly those until the late nineties) for bringing something special in this area (naturally I'd also take an Italian V12 or a North American V8, among others), something different, entertaining and musical to go along with a nicely resolved and driver-centric chassis / controls. Less so now maybe that mass market appeal /legislation / technological progress / whatever is dulling the distinctiveness of those brands in relative terms.
The problem I have with the Elise (and it's not a terminal one as it won't necessarily stop me from buying one!) is that the engine, whilst made to look good by its surroundings, just feels a noticeably less interesting and special than the rest of the package. This is a car after all - with no engine and it's purely a sculpture. To a lesser extent, the same is true for my individual scores for brake / clutch pedal feel and gear change tactility (is it precise, positive and mechanical, without being harsh / sticky /stringy / stiff / inconsistent etc.). These things are not easy to get to everyone's taste in every case, but they do represent your main interface with the car aside from the seat so its worth the effort, as it makes all the component parts of driving (which I enjoy separately as well as in harmony) much more rewarding (for me at least).
If I can live down being so crude, the Elise suffers from the "David Beckham effect" - looks good, knows how to move, has lovely manners etc.. But the voice is jarringly out of kilter with other features. The best cars combine a bit of everything and I'd sacrifice some percentage points against the other features for a more conspicuously special donk - it's the heart of any internal combustion engined car after all. I'm not a fan of eighties Alfas but I'd rock a GTV6 just for the noise!
A light car can't really benefit from the heavily engineered, robust feeling in the same way as say some air-cooled pork. But 6 (or even 5!) naturally aspirated cylinders would make it nicer to use for me, assuming it wasn't a complete boat anchor. Thing is, I don't think Porsche is any more likely to make something like a modern 550 Spyder / Elise type car than VW is to swap perspex windows for the back seats in a Golf GTi
I think there was a Russ Bulgin (RIP) column way back in Car or even Autocar where he half-joked about Porsche keeping the tooling for the 993, so at some point in the future it could churn out some vintage hits, ala Levi Strauss White Label Jeans (or something - I'm not a clothes horse). Perhaps not feasible given the market and logistics but imagine how good a factory fresh example of your favourite defunct line would feel now - you could drive the cars you missed in their prime! For a hefty price... Brunei beckons....
Back on topic, I am loving the Elise S1 and S2. Wanders off to classifieds...
TL;DR: Elise is a magnificent drive but capable of improvement. Start with Exige S if you're "multi-cylinder snob"
For my tastes, sound is such huge part of the driving experience and pleasure. A 4-banger, even the most cherished examples (I'm thinking a decent Alfa twin-cam unit or a Honda vtec type-scenario) still lack the ability to feel sufficiently special for me. I can enjoy the relative purity (light, compact, keen and responsive) of the layout, but in the context of a car for enjoyment (which is to me what a sports car is about) lacks aural titillation in an almost unforgivable way for me. Something a bit less ordinary would be better. I've always liked BMWs and Porsches (particularly those until the late nineties) for bringing something special in this area (naturally I'd also take an Italian V12 or a North American V8, among others), something different, entertaining and musical to go along with a nicely resolved and driver-centric chassis / controls. Less so now maybe that mass market appeal /legislation / technological progress / whatever is dulling the distinctiveness of those brands in relative terms.
The problem I have with the Elise (and it's not a terminal one as it won't necessarily stop me from buying one!) is that the engine, whilst made to look good by its surroundings, just feels a noticeably less interesting and special than the rest of the package. This is a car after all - with no engine and it's purely a sculpture. To a lesser extent, the same is true for my individual scores for brake / clutch pedal feel and gear change tactility (is it precise, positive and mechanical, without being harsh / sticky /stringy / stiff / inconsistent etc.). These things are not easy to get to everyone's taste in every case, but they do represent your main interface with the car aside from the seat so its worth the effort, as it makes all the component parts of driving (which I enjoy separately as well as in harmony) much more rewarding (for me at least).
If I can live down being so crude, the Elise suffers from the "David Beckham effect" - looks good, knows how to move, has lovely manners etc.. But the voice is jarringly out of kilter with other features. The best cars combine a bit of everything and I'd sacrifice some percentage points against the other features for a more conspicuously special donk - it's the heart of any internal combustion engined car after all. I'm not a fan of eighties Alfas but I'd rock a GTV6 just for the noise!
A light car can't really benefit from the heavily engineered, robust feeling in the same way as say some air-cooled pork. But 6 (or even 5!) naturally aspirated cylinders would make it nicer to use for me, assuming it wasn't a complete boat anchor. Thing is, I don't think Porsche is any more likely to make something like a modern 550 Spyder / Elise type car than VW is to swap perspex windows for the back seats in a Golf GTi
I think there was a Russ Bulgin (RIP) column way back in Car or even Autocar where he half-joked about Porsche keeping the tooling for the 993, so at some point in the future it could churn out some vintage hits, ala Levi Strauss White Label Jeans (or something - I'm not a clothes horse). Perhaps not feasible given the market and logistics but imagine how good a factory fresh example of your favourite defunct line would feel now - you could drive the cars you missed in their prime! For a hefty price... Brunei beckons....
Back on topic, I am loving the Elise S1 and S2. Wanders off to classifieds...
TL;DR: Elise is a magnificent drive but capable of improvement. Start with Exige S if you're "multi-cylinder snob"
Edited by Diesel Meister on Friday 4th December 01:43
@DieselM. we can agree to agree!
the answer is probably several cars.
The K series was fantastically light (and characterful) engine which suited a light sports car really well. Regulations meant that any replacement unit would be heavier. I guess the air cooled 6 cylinder was also very light for a 6, but is also necessarily heavier with water and other modern technology to make it clean and so for lightweight a 4 is always preferable. This has been the case for light race cars too ever since motor racing began, so the heritage is there too.
Many years ago i chose a BMW 318 (e36) as a company car over a 320. real reason was AC and other bits. A bit sad i know. Reality is though that the 318 handled much better than the nose heavy 320, and especially the 325. I realise a straight six BMW is lovely and eventually got one with an e46 (maybe handling improved?).
I'd offer a possible fantasy garage (actually for 100k):
- Elise
- 964
- M3 E46
- XJS 4.0
- Chim
that would cover cylinders and different travelling needs. 964 would now cost at least twice that of any of the others!
the answer is probably several cars.
The K series was fantastically light (and characterful) engine which suited a light sports car really well. Regulations meant that any replacement unit would be heavier. I guess the air cooled 6 cylinder was also very light for a 6, but is also necessarily heavier with water and other modern technology to make it clean and so for lightweight a 4 is always preferable. This has been the case for light race cars too ever since motor racing began, so the heritage is there too.
Many years ago i chose a BMW 318 (e36) as a company car over a 320. real reason was AC and other bits. A bit sad i know. Reality is though that the 318 handled much better than the nose heavy 320, and especially the 325. I realise a straight six BMW is lovely and eventually got one with an e46 (maybe handling improved?).
I'd offer a possible fantasy garage (actually for 100k):
- Elise
- 964
- M3 E46
- XJS 4.0
- Chim
that would cover cylinders and different travelling needs. 964 would now cost at least twice that of any of the others!
CABC said:
The K series was fantastically light (and characterful) engine which suited a light sports car really well. Regulations meant that any replacement unit would be heavier.
Yes, the K was great for what it was designed for, problem is, the Elise was not it. To suggest any other engine would have added anything like the increase the 2ZZ (and it's gearbox) made.
Obvious one is the Ford Duratec or current EcoBoost, they are not that different, (also worth mentioning the 'new' K series from China, they seem to have fixed all the issues with a new block, HG setup, head castings, etc).
Look, yes, a 700Kg Elise is probably unrealistic, but I can see not reason why it should not be possible to keep it under ~750Kg's
Scuffers said:
RobM77 said:
Scuffers said:
It's a shame they have strayed so far away from the original concept.
Adding 200kgs really is criminal.
They didn't have a lot of choice to be fair. The Toyota engine was necessary for federalisation, which in turn was necessary to make money, and together with its gearbox that new engine contributes to the lion's share of the weight gain. Not only that, but people on forums went on and on about head gasket failure with the k series and I'm sure getting a Toyota engine in the back was good for sales in those terms as well.Adding 200kgs really is criminal.
RobM77 said:
It's not 200kg though, it's 173kg. It's also not just the engine and gearbox that make that up, they're just a significant contributor. I also don't believe that Lotus could just 'pick' and engine they wanted.
Rob,with all due, it's a lot closer to 200 than 173 (lot depends on what age of S1 you start with, remember, the early cars were actually under 700Kg's).
Either way, 900Kg's for an Elise is crazy, hell, you now heavier than steel bodied cars (EG. Fiat 500, Ford KA, etc etc).
Yes, you can then claim safety stuff has added weight, well yes, but it's not big numbers, ABS does not add 10Kg's, neither do airbags (more like 5 and 3 respectively), the issue is they have got lazy, too much stuff that's bolted onto them is just plain heavy, rear subframe is the stand-out, it's almost 3 times the weight of the S1's because they chose to re-design that rather than the Ali chassis when they changed engines (for the VX).
bertie said:
Caterham seem to have managed to secure a deal with Ford for the Duratec and have swapped engienes without adding 175Kg.
In fact the Duratec is I believe even lighter than the K series when both are fully dressed.
be interesting to know how much the Chinese would want for the new 'K' series power-train to an OEM...In fact the Duratec is I believe even lighter than the K series when both are fully dressed.
(Was looking at a new block, they seem to have made quite a few detailed changes to them, lots of stiffening ribs added etc.)
Scuffers said:
be interesting to know how much the Chinese would want for the new 'K' series power-train to an OEM...
(Was looking at a new block, they seem to have made quite a few detailed changes to them, lots of stiffening ribs added etc.)
Thing have moved on though, K series is an old engine now.(Was looking at a new block, they seem to have made quite a few detailed changes to them, lots of stiffening ribs added etc.)
I think I'd rather a Ford Duratec than a Chinese K series!
CABC said:
Many years ago i chose a BMW 318 (e36) as a company car over a 320.... A bit sad i know. Reality is though that the 318 handled much better
Yup, that was a truly brilliant car and I eventually got one in preference over the much quicker Nissan Primera GT. The balance of the 318 was impeccable for its day - perfect for those who also enjoy mid-engined cars!Whilst I think we'd all have preferred to see a K20 as OEM fitment in the Elise, I was under the impression that they got the Toyota lump extremely cheaply.
As for the overall weight difference, I think the Toyota lump is the single biggest contributor but from what I've seen of different model year car weights, it's by no means the majority of the weight. My largely standard late K-series S2 was almost exactly 800kg with half a tank of fuel and the usual rubbish in the boot, so a big chunk more than an early S1 but late S1s seem to come in around the 770kg mark so not a great increase on that. Aside from the 60ish kg added when the swapped to the Toyota lump, the weight just seems to have gradually crept up over the years.
As for the overall weight difference, I think the Toyota lump is the single biggest contributor but from what I've seen of different model year car weights, it's by no means the majority of the weight. My largely standard late K-series S2 was almost exactly 800kg with half a tank of fuel and the usual rubbish in the boot, so a big chunk more than an early S1 but late S1s seem to come in around the 770kg mark so not a great increase on that. Aside from the 60ish kg added when the swapped to the Toyota lump, the weight just seems to have gradually crept up over the years.
bertie said:
Caterham seem to have managed to secure a deal with Ford for the Duratec and have swapped engienes without adding 175Kg.
In fact the Duratec is I believe even lighter than the K series when both are fully dressed.
In fact the Duratec is I believe even lighter than the K series when both are fully dressed.
along with Brooke, that new ugly thing etc. Is that something to do with SVA? I know the Toyota engine was necessary to sell the Elise in America.Regardless though, I still think even the heaviest of Elises drive and handle beautifully, and a bit of extra comfort means you can drive them more and enjoy them more often
RobM77 said:
I still think even the heaviest of Elises drive and handle beautifully, and a bit of extra comfort means you can drive them more and enjoy them more often
An opportunity was missed when they went off exploring the "£55k mid-engined 2+2" non-existent niche when all the market needed/wanted was a slightly bigger Elise with a V6 in the back. Unfortunately what we ended up with is a circuitous route to sticking a V6 on the back of the OLD elise/exige. Great shame IMO. But I look forward enormously to the "new Elise" whenever that may finally emerge from Hethel.Ozzie Osmond said:
An opportunity was missed when they went off exploring the "£55k mid-engined 2+2" non-existent niche when all the market needed/wanted was a slightly bigger Elise with a V6 in the back. Unfortunately what we ended up with is a circuitous route to sticking a V6 on the back of the OLD elise/exige. Great shame IMO. But I look forward enormously to the "new Elise" whenever that may finally emerge from Hethel.
Spot on, Evora was just wrong before it left the drawing board, classic example of marketing focus group thinking.At the time, the market wanted the M250, which you could argue the Ascari/Noble/etc have all entered, and worse of all, where the hell is the new Esprit?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
for a mass-production mainstream this would be next to impossible, for a low-volume producer, it's bread and butter stuff, No reason you could not make the S1 again, with enough updates to meet emissions, etc. without ruining the basic car.Hell, Caterham have been making essentially the same car for 30+ years, as were TVR (and about to try again)
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Amen! That would be the dream for me (add in a narrow nose 3.8 E34 M5 among countless others - the list is potentially endless....). Any unexpected / unlikely influx of mega-cash would lead to me undertaking some quite extensive "resto-modding" (not sure I like that as an adverb). Ultimate retirement hobby alongside a bit of travel / reading / study. Shame I'd need several millions to make it work (space time, mechanics etc.) whilst not otherwise working myself!I'm not a fan of four cylinder engines, but they are an appropriate solution for a lightweight car. It won't be long before anything bigger is extinct in the sportscar sector. Six cylinder Caymans and Boxsters are not long for this world.
When looking at the increasing weight of Elises, it's also worth bearing in mind that Lotus have got more honest over time.
When looking at the increasing weight of Elises, it's also worth bearing in mind that Lotus have got more honest over time.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'd not kick it out of bed (or anything powered by an S38 for that matter) Oto - that's sort of my point. I totally agree that the smaller lighter engine is truer to the concept and arguably more fit for the application. But since when has logic got much to do with fun? I want it all - compact, light weight sports car with lovely dynamics / controls and a relatively special engine, for an attainable (sub ~£30k? A whole other debate). For example, whilst I love the purity of concept represented by an S1 at under 750kg, I'd put up with the ~200kg extra in the S2/S3 if the donk was more musical - hang the airbags etc.
Sadly the reality would be a >1000kg (or ~£50k) Elise, alongside all the other kit that has been added over the years. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff