RE: Lotus Elise 20th Anniversary vs. S1 Elise

[otolith]

It's just one of those situations where you have to choose your compromises. Lotus will of course sell you a six cylinder Elise family car, but it's over 1100kg. And then as it's not really so light anymore, the option of a few hundred kg more to have something more civilised hoves into view.

Personally, I'd like one with an RX-8 engine in the back. Somewhere between the weight of the Rover and Toyota engines, 230bhp, refined and I quite like the sound of them with appropriate exhaust and intake arrangements.

[Scuffers]

otolith said:

It's just one of those situations where you have to choose your compromises. Lotus will of course sell you a six cylinder Elise family car, but it's over 1100kg. And then as it's not really so light anymore, the option of a few hundred kg more to have something more civilised hoves into view.

I do take you're point but consider that the V6 Exige is approaching 1,200Kg's, which for an Ali chassis car with GRP body is laughable.

The problem is they have got lazy/cheapskate and have spend the years just bolting stuff on, that's always heavier than what it replaced.

Then we get to the price tag, 'from' £54,500 for the V6.

Sorry? HOW MUCH?

That's insane, list the cars you can buy for that money then tell me hand on heart you would have the V6 Exige over that?

it's the same deal with the cheapest Elise at £30K.

[otolith]

To be honest, there is nothing new you can buy for the price of the V6 Exige that I would rather have, but I realise that my position is not widely held.

[CABC]

Scuffers said:

I do take you're point but consider that the V6 Exige is approaching 1,200Kg's, which for an Ali chassis car with GRP body is laughable.

The problem is they have got lazy/cheapskate and have spend the years just bolting stuff on, that's always heavier than what it replaced.

Then we get to the price tag, 'from' £54,500 for the V6.

Sorry? HOW MUCH?

That's insane, list the cars you can buy for that money then tell me hand on heart you would have the V6 Exige over that?

it's the same deal with the cheapest Elise at £30K.

what would propose?
for both the V6 and the base Elise.
i realise it's a small market but within that niche i see little competition. Zenos doesn't have a roof yet.
MX5 really is the answer to many things, but not on the same level of feel and immersion.

[aka_kerrly]

Both the new & old Elise are magnificent cars in their own right and I can't think of another large scale production car which has strayed so little from it's original design. I believe that there is far more to the overall experience than just the weight which people seem a bit too obsessed with.

Also worth noting that Lotus did will to secure the EL15EUK number plate, belongs in the good plates thread.

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

Then we get to the price tag, 'from' £54,500 for the V6.

Sorry? HOW MUCH?

That's insane, list the cars you can buy for that money then tell me hand on heart you would have the V6 Exige over that?

it's the same deal with the cheapest Elise at £30K.

Assuming we're not comparing new with secondhand here, I can't think of any cars I'd rather have at £30k or £54,500.

The Elise, at £30k, doesn't really have any competition at all. There's a host of coupés like the Scirroco and RCZ, but they're much heavier monocoque cars, slower and have nowhere near the level of driver focus or driving pleasure about them. The GT86 is a closer call, but I'd far rather be driving an Elise for my £30k thanks! £30k doesn't even get you much Caterham these days (just about an R300 if you build it yourself?) - don't forget once you look at inflation it wasn't so long ago that £30k was the equivalent of £20k.

As for the Exige, that's probably the best road car I've ever driven in terms of driver enjoyment, bar none. The Cayman and Boxster are I suppose its closest competitors (Cayman S base price is £50k, GTS is £56k), but in my humble opinion they drive nowhere near as well, not even close. There's a host of sports/GTs for that money like the SLK, F Type etc, but they're even further from the Porsche in terms of driver enjoyment.

So my short answer is no, I can't think of anything else for the money I'd rather have if we compare new with new. That's just me though.

[Scuffers]

CABC said:

what would propose?
for both the V6 and the base Elise.
i realise it's a small market but within that niche i see little competition. Zenos doesn't have a roof yet.
MX5 really is the answer to many things, but not on the same level of feel and immersion.

I do get your point, however, it's all very subjective.

for example, at £30K you can get a pretty nice spec'ed Z4 Roadster 2.0 sDrive20i M Sport

and how about a nice Porsche Cayman 3.4 GTS 2d?

or if you're into more mainstream stuff, you can get an RS5 for £55K

[otolith]

Not convinced a Z4 is a reasonable substitute for an Elise - or vice-versa. The mrs has a Z4M, I've got a 111R, and neither of us would be willing to swap.

[Scuffers]

otolith said:

Not convinced a Z4 is a reasonable substitute for an Elise - or vice-versa. The mrs has a Z4M, I've got a 111R, and neither of us would be willing to swap.

my guess is that if you asked most people, assuming it was going to be their only car, not many would pick the Elise.

this is also borne out by sales figures, there are a shed load more Z4's out there than Elise's.

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

CABC said:

what would propose?
for both the V6 and the base Elise.
i realise it's a small market but within that niche i see little competition. Zenos doesn't have a roof yet.
MX5 really is the answer to many things, but not on the same level of feel and immersion.

I do get your point, however, it's all very subjective.

for example, at £30K you can get a pretty nice spec'ed Z4 Roadster 2.0 sDrive20i M Sport

and how about a nice Porsche Cayman 3.4 GTS 2d?

or if you're into more mainstream stuff, you can get an RS5 for £55K

Isn't that a bit like telling someone for the cost of their hiking holiday in the Alps they could have an all inclusive resort holiday somewhere hot? I'm not making a judgement on either - the Cayman and Z4 are good cars, as is the Elise, but they do very different things. I recently owned a Z4 Coupé actually, but I had an Elise as well and there's no way I'd just want the Z4.

[RobM77]

Scuffers said:

my guess is that if you asked most people, assuming it was going to be their only car, not many would pick the Elise.

this is also borne out by sales figures, there are a shed load more Z4's out there than Elise's.

They sell more Australian Chardonnay than Chablis, but I know what I'd rather drink!! Different tastes, that's all. The Elise is not intended to go head to head with the Z4.

[otolith]

Scuffers said:

otolith said:

Not convinced a Z4 is a reasonable substitute for an Elise - or vice-versa. The mrs has a Z4M, I've got a 111R, and neither of us would be willing to swap.

my guess is that if you asked most people, assuming it was going to be their only car, not many would pick the Elise.

this is also borne out by sales figures, there are a shed load more Z4's out there than Elise's.

Oh, absolutely massively so, no doubt about it. And for most people a 335d would be an even better only car.

The Elise isn't a mass market kind of car, never was and never will be. It's a niche vehicle for people with certain preferences who are willing to make certain compromises in order to satisfy them. It's never going to sell in Z4 or TT or SLK or Boxster volumes. Laphroaig will never sell as much volume as Famous Grouse.

[Scuffers]

otolith said:

Laphroaig will never sell as much volume as Famous Grouse.

the small matter of price difference has a factor here don't you think?

[otolith]

Scuffers said:

otolith said:

Laphroaig will never sell as much volume as Famous Grouse.

the small matter of price difference has a factor here don't you think?

It does, in the same way it does with Lotus. Tasting like a burning pharmacy makes it a niche product, which limits the production volumes, which erases the economies of scale, which pushes the price up. Maybe more people would try it if it were cheaper, but it's never going to be everyman's drink.

[otolith]

Sadly, I think that if Lotus were to launch an all new six cylinder model now, it is quite likely that within the lifetime of that model the magazines would be comparing it unfavourably to Porsche's all turbo, all four pot rivals on the grounds that a six is completely outdated and old fashioned.

[otolith]

Yes, it's depressing.

[Scuffers]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

bespoke engines are a non-starter these days, the costs are simply staggering, no small manufacture is going to commit to that (and yes, I do realise somebody will say McLaren).

Flat engines are great, BUT, they cost more to make, and are harder to package, you cannot make a flat 6 mid-engined car without some significant compromises, great as it may well be (Subaru have a very nice flat 6).

All that said the issue over engines is not really that hard, there are plenty of OEM engines out there, the trick is getting the right deal on the right engine/powertrain.

Getting back to Lotus, the V6 is already obsolete (it was before Lotus used it) Toyota have moved on, and let's face it, it was never a stellar engine to start with.

I would argue Ford have a pretty decent range of engines available, as do GM (although their small stuff is not that great).

Back to the Elise, I don't think the 'it needs a V6' is a valid argument, a decent 4 pot is fine for a <750Kg's fun car, hell, it does not need to be 300+Hp, 200Hp in a 750Kg's S1 is more than exciting enough.

Move onto the Exige, then yes, I can see the argument for a 2 or 2.5l V6 with 250+ Hp.

then we get to the Evora, please just scrap it and come up with the Esprit, with a V8, no fanniying around with some V6 leftover dog from god knows what.

If McLaren can go from zero to some 1,800 cars a year (2015) with a £170+k car, what's Lotus's excuse?

[saaby93]

Scuffers said:

I would argue Ford have a pretty decent range of engines available, as do GM (although their small stuff is not that great).

Whats the weight of the 1.0 used in the mondeo?
or a bike engine

Isnt the evora 2+0 the esprit?

[Kolbenkopp]

Must be lack of capital to put invest in new car development Lotus' case. Not to critize McLaren, very impressive what they do. What about the flat-4 from the GT86? I think that could work nicely. Proably the Lotus-Toyota-Subaru link is a bit of a stretch though to imagine they have cheap access to the boxer...

[CABC]

i think we can all agree that in 30 years time when many new PHers haven't enjoyed a flat 6. (esp an air cooled one), those of who have will reminisce about true greatness.

However, the Elise is a focused driving machine that is only slightly worse off because of its 4 pot.

On a related note, i think the GT86 is a great car for a few reasons, one of which is that low boxer engine. A characterful 6 it certainly is not, but the weight is noticeably low. So, another car that would appeal to more with a better engine.