RE: Lotus Exige Sport 350: Driven

[Hamma]

Oilchange said:

I'm wondering about this'aged' platform you keep going on about. It's a modern, proven and excellent model that Aston Martin and Tesla have adopted, been tweeked and adjusted over the last twenty years to be the stiffest and lightest (bar going carbon fibre composite) in it's class. And the competition (Porsche) use what? Pressed steel! The oldest in existence...

Aged as in developed a long time ago. Has old-fashioned dimensions perhaps. Surely you understand what I just wrote about the tire width and how that is directly dependent on platform design? So it's a great chassis which I have praised time and time again in this thread (didn't you read my posts?), but pointed out that it's old and that might be the reason they can't put wider tires than 205 on it which is not very competitive (and they seem to be struggling with front end sharpness).

The competition uses steel mainly, and seems to be faster with much less compromise. That's exactly why I think Lotus should up their game in the tire size and track width, so they don't shoot themselves in the foot after all that brilliant work, not to mention sacrifices in comfort that customers have to endure.

"As for the larger wheels, really? You want your Lotus to look like a council estate 1990's Audi A4 with the subsequent awful ride and handling? Or do you want it to ride and handle like a Lotus should? The best in the business."

Wider wheels. Wider. As in more grip. As in not 205 wide bicycle tires. Larger diameter doesn't wreck the ride necessarily either. There are very many cars with very large diameter and wide wheels that handle excellently. I've heard good things about the 305 -equipped 'crude' Mustangs and Camaros even, they don't seem to be awful. I already wrote about that, and how modern hatchbacks can be bought with 255s. Look around, nowadays 245 width in the front is pretty ordinary, and 205 is basically non-existent. And the Exige is supposed to be an 'extreme performance car'.

I guess the unassisted steering is a blessing and a curse too. Or it works in cars up to a certain category and no further.

"Sometimes I think they should simply offer these options just to attract the business of those who 'don't get it'. Give the customer what they want..."

Do you really think that's a fair statement? Someone who wants an LSD (or the option of speccing one) in a super-raw performance car 'doesn't get it'? Someone who looks at the competition and notices that they can stay lardy and be faster, or be based on basic cars and be faster shouldn't mention that to anyone or else I'm an idiot who doesn't understand?

[b]"ETA:
Hey, Hamma, why don't you fill in a bit more on your profile so we can see where you are coming from. It's all well and good criticising cars but unless you are prepared to stand up and be counted with a credible alternative or some engineering reasoning you carry little weight. No details in your profile just says to me you are hiding behind your anonymity..."[/b]

I'd rather discuss things without ad hominem attacks, keeping to car talk and argumentation. Also, I fail to see what can be gained by those few basic details. I've never seen any need to list the author's home address in academic work either.

Your profile has your nickname, your name listed as: ":-)", your occupation as: "Busy fellow, occasionally.", your region as: "South", country as: "United Kingdom", and notes as: "OMG, LOL! WTF?". How does that make a difference in your case? You are so transparent, forthcoming and open that it really sheds a new light to what you're saying!!

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 13:53

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 14:03

[bencollins]

Lotus line up looks very sorted these days.
0-60 in 3.7 secs, exclusivity and 1125kg for £55k with a reliable engine.
200kg+ less than equivalently priced Porsche, yet some hilarious tripe posted by the usual unhappy-inside-twunts. TL;DR.

Edited by bencollins on Saturday 12th December 13:39

[Hamma]

Oilchange said:

Hamma said:
All in all, I hope that some commenters don't respond to discussion and voicing of opinions too harshly and don't read it as raging criticism.

then said:

Another great example of a British company taking a shortcut and calling it 'purity', then blaming critics for 'not understanding'. tongue out

'raging criticism'?

I hate the term 'Troll' but...

What the hell is your problem? Maybe you should sort out your personal problems elsewhere.

Read the quotes you listed again, and notice the last part of the second one, moron!

I specifically wrote (in the part you quoted) that I'm discussing things normally and that it's not raging criticism! How hard is that to understand?? I knew that this forum is known for belligerent little s**ts looking for arguments all day, so I decided to add that in case people were too illiterate to understand that I friggin' love that car, and also in case some don't understand that discussions are not just circle-jerks of idiots praising something without a word of criticism! I wrote that especially for anti-social morons like you, and then you not only don't understand that you actually quote that while trying to pick a fight!!

Then you quote my joking reply with a friggin' smiley ( ) at the end of it which I hate using but put specifically just to make extra certain that even completely thick-headed anti-social chavs like yourself would stay the F out of running your mouth!

Please don't respond to my posts anymore. I'm going to ignore yours.

[kambites]

Hamma said:

I guess the unassisted steering is a blessing and a curse too. Or it works in cars up to a certain category and no further.

I've never really got the concept of a "category" of car but I certainly don't believe Lotus could go chasing ultimate grip levels without fitting PAS... but then I don't think they should do either because, at least for me, more grip would almost certainly make it a worse car.

Lets be honest, if they wanted to try to make the car go as fast as possible they'd need 4wd, an automated manual gearbox, and probably a much bigger engine... basically they'd end up building a Nissan GTR/911 turbo which is not what the Exige is meant to be.

I understand your desire for the traits that you love as well as what the Exige offers in its own right, but unfortunately I think from an engineering perspective they're close to being directly contradictory. If you put hugely wide, grippy front tyres on an Exige, it would no longer drive like an Exige.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 12th December 13:55

[rtz62]

Personally I found the article, and the subsequent conversations and arguments, enlightening.
Although not in a position, currently, to purchase one, I will be in the future, and the consideration will be there.
Or should I say, 'should be'? Am I the only person who cannot get the configurator to load or work properly?
Not a big issue in the great scheme of things but if I can't get to configure the car, then it doesn't exactly entice me to the doors of my nearest dealer.

[Hamma]

kambites said:

I've never really got the concept of a "category" of car but I certainly don't believe Lotus could go chasing ultimate grip levels without fitting PAS... but then I don't think they should do either because, at least for me, more grip would almost certainly make it a worse car.

Lets be honest, if they wanted to try to make the car go as fast as possible they'd need 4wd, an automated manual gearbox, and probably a much bigger engine... basically they'd end up building a Nissan GTR/911 turbo which is not what the Exige is meant to be.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 12th December 13:52

Yeah, that's the difficulty: they're getting to a performance level where the competition uses much more 'heavy-handed' stuff to compete. And lots of people won't see it that way, they'll only see the numbers and not see the various benefits that Lotus uniquely offers.

My hope is that they can keep to an Exige-like model at the top of the 'unassisted steering and compact chassis' range, and also offer something above that in the future! Something that will be easier for people to really notice as a supercar-killer and driving machine, as it's more on par concept-wise to the established and massively selling opposition.

[kambites]

Hamma said:

Yeah, that's the difficulty: they're getting to a performance level where the competition uses much more 'heavy-handed' stuff to compete. And lots of people won't see it that way, they'll only see the numbers and not see the various benefits that Lotus uniquely offers.

Indeed and this is why the Exige will always be a small-volume car. But that doesn't mean it should change; if they try to make the Exige compete directly with mass manufacturers they will lose, badly.

As for offering something above the Exige well I guess you could argue that's the Evora 400 which is a very much more "modern" car in terms of its concept and specs.

[Oilchange]

Hamma, you make some really daft comments

'maybe a stiffer frame and more sophisticated setup?
and
'improving turn in'
and
'very old chassis design' 'great but (well) aged platform'

You do know that Lotus are the market leaders in ride and handling don't you? You do know that pretty much all the mainstream companies have used Lotus to develop the ride and handling of their cars and lots more stuff is done quietly and in business confidence?

Also, if you want an lsd, I expect Lotus would fit one and it might even come in less than £2000.

Have you driven an Exige? If not, get in one, then come back and tell us if it doesn't turn in well or the chassis feel stiff enough or if it doesn't ride the bumps like you wouldn't think is possible...


Oh, and please stop swearing, you're lowering the tone.

Edited by Oilchange on Saturday 12th December 14:11

[braddo]

Hamma said:

Please don't respond to my posts anymore. I'm going to ignore yours.

You're posting like a troll so the sooner you check out of PH the better.

[foxsasha]

Hamma said:

What the hell is your problem? Maybe you should sort out your personal problems elsewhere.

Read the quotes you listed again, and notice the last part of the second one, moron!

I specifically wrote (in the part you quoted) that I'm discussing things normally and that it's not raging criticism! How hard is that to understand?? I knew that this forum is known for belligerent little s**ts looking for arguments all day, so I decided to add that in case people were too illiterate to understand that I friggin' love that car, and also in case some don't understand that discussions are not just circle-jerks of idiots praising something without a word of criticism! I wrote that especially for anti-social morons like you, and then you not only don't understand that you actually quote that while trying to pick a fight!!

Then you quote my joking reply with a friggin' smiley ( ) at the end of it which I hate using but put specifically just to make extra certain that even completely thick-headed anti-social chavs like yourself would stay the F out of running your mouth!

Please don't respond to my posts anymore. I'm going to ignore yours.

Quality rant, love it

[Hamma]

kambites said:

I understand your desire for the traits that you love as well as what the Exige offers in its own right, but unfortunately I think from an engineering perspective they're close to being directly contradictory. If you put hugely wide, grippy front tyres on an Exige, it would no longer drive like an Exige.

Yeah, but we always have to push and demand for better! Engineers would be out of work if we'd just settle for what is out there! Not to mention that the competition has billions in resources and an army of engineers and in addition to that an even bigger army of marketeers to gloss over their shortcomings and shortcuts as well as talk up their products. You can't compete against that with anything else than the best that you can do.

I'd put it slightly differently BTW, I'd argue that I'm pushing to get the absolute best out of the Exige (and what Lotus can offer). Take their current concept and take it to the best level they can get it to. That's why the engine version just feels like such a let down even if it really isn't such a big deal.

So as I don't know the exact constraints they're working with: generally just put as wide tires as you can in that chassis and with your non-assisted steering, put in the best engine version that you can, and please make it a priority to stick in an LSD even as an expensive extra if you can manage to make the adjustments to keep the handling top notch! I guess my main worry is that they're trying to shave a few thousand off the list price or are not brave enough to make investments which would in the end make the product just about perfect and pay off in the end.

Maybe I'm worrying for no reason and they'll introduce an Exige 400 (or Exige 400 Cup) in a few months. And are the rumours true that a completely new Elise chassis (and therefore most likely a new Exige chassis) will be introduced in a few years?

[Dan Trent]

Hamma said:

My hope is that they can keep to an Exige-like model at the top of the 'unassisted steering and compact chassis' range, and also offer something above that in the future! Something that will be easier for people to really notice as a supercar-killer and driving machine, as it's more on par concept-wise to the established and massively selling opposition.

I had a one-to-one with Jean-Marc Gales after the drive which I'll be typing up as a news story for Monday but, suffice to say, I think the 'Evora Sport' or whatever it ends up being called may well be exactly the car you are asking for here! He didn't say a lot about it. But gave some pretty heavy hints. And, of course, that leaves the Exige to do its thing and target those who want the non-assisted steering and smaller footprint.

Watch this space but I think you'll like what he has to say!

Cheers,

Dan

[Impasse]

Hamma said:

Yeah, but we always have to push and demand for better!

When you drove the Exige Sport 350 which aspects didn't you like and which bits did you think were well resolved?

[truck71]

bencollins said:

Lotus line up looks very sorted these days.
0-60 in 3.7 secs, exclusivity and 1125kg for £55k with a reliable engine.
200kg+ less than equivalently priced Porsche, yet some hilarious tripe posted by the usual unhappy-inside-twunts. TL;DR.

Edited by bencollins on Saturday 12th December 13:39

Indeed it does, almost accidently via a lack of investment cash, they've got an offer that hasn't moved into the increasingly synthetic offers from the Germans. Sure a lot of it is reworked and improved versions of long reigning models but they look really appealing (Evora's looks are still challenging for me but clearly a well resolved car). If you wanted an all rounder then an Evora would be an option vs Pork/F Type and "maybe" a few Audi TT owners. If you want a second car toy then the elise/exige range gives lots of variants with the Sport 350 the ultimate incarnation. I'd love a go in one.

[Maldini35]

Hamma said:

kambites said:

I understand your desire for the traits that you love as well as what the Exige offers in its own right, but unfortunately I think from an engineering perspective they're close to being directly contradictory. If you put hugely wide, grippy front tyres on an Exige, it would no longer drive like an Exige.

Yeah, but we always have to push and demand for better! Engineers would be out of work if we'd just settle for what is out there! Not to mention that the competition has billions in resources and an army of engineers and in addition to that an even bigger army of marketeers to gloss over their shortcomings and shortcuts as well as talk up their products. You can't compete against that with anything else than the best that you can do.

I'd put it slightly differently BTW, I'd argue that I'm pushing to get the absolute best out of the Exige (and what Lotus can offer). Take their current concept and take it to the best level they can get it to. That's why the engine version just feels like such a let down even if it really isn't such a big deal.

So as I don't know the exact constraints they're working with: generally just put as wide tires as you can in that chassis and with your non-assisted steering, put in the best engine version that you can, and please make it a priority to stick in an LSD even as an expensive extra if you can manage to make the adjustments to keep the handling top notch! I guess my main worry is that they're trying to shave a few thousand off the list price or are not brave enough to make investments which would in the end make the product just about perfect and pay off in the end.

Maybe I'm worrying for no reason and they'll introduce an Exige 400 (or Exige 400 Cup) in a few months. And are the rumours true that a completely new Elise chassis (and therefore most likely a new Exige chassis) will be introduced in a few years?

Do you really need an extra 50 bhp?
Why?
And please don't reference the market, the competition and global sales targets. Why do you so desperately want another 50bhp from an Exige - as a driver?
Are you worried about being embarrassed on track days?
I take it you've not driven the new car so why fixate on a meaningless number (400)?
The fun of driving a Lotus fast is the feeling of wringing out every last drop of performance / getting the line perfect/ judging braking just right / basically feeling like you're driving the thing as fast as it will go.
Yes, an extra 50 bhp might help mask some driver deficiencies and allow you to make some mistakes without getting overtaken but you would lose that sense of achievement.
You seem to be adopting a very American approach (just dial up the horsepower) so perhaps Lotus just isn't the marque for you.
Personally I love the 911, I just wish they'd move the engine forward....

[Dan Trent]

Edited down some onboard footage to give you a sense of a lap around Hethel in the Sport 350 - see here!

And if I can be parental for a moment be nice to Hamma - he makes a provocative argument but, I think, a reasonable and reasoned one. Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate and putting the car under the scrutiny those who'd ask 'but why not more power/bigger wheels/etc?' would subject it to. For what it's worth I asked all the same questions of the Lotus guys yesterday too! By all means argue the toss but play nice please.

Cheers,

Dan

Edited by Dan Trent on Saturday 12th December 16:57

[Hamma]

Maldini35 said:

Do you really need an extra 50 bhp?
Why?
And please don't reference the market, the competition and global sales targets. Why do you so desperately want another 50bhp from an Exige - as a driver?
Are you worried about being embarrassed on track days?
I take it you've not driven the new car so why fixate on a meaningless number (400)?
The fun of driving a Lotus fast is the feeling of wringing out every last drop of performance / getting the line perfect/ judging braking just right / basically feeling like you're driving the thing as fast as it will go.
Yes, an extra 50 bhp might help mask some driver deficiencies and allow you to make some mistakes without getting overtaken but you would lose that sense of achievement.
You seem to be adopting a very American approach (just dial up the horsepower) so perhaps Lotus just isn't the marque for you.
Personally I love the 911, I just wish they'd move the engine forward....

Oh, it'll be more than 'enough' without a doubt. As I mentioned, there are several reasons why it feels a bit disappointing as a number:
a) The market is full of family cars with lower displacement six-pot engines producing about 320-400hp. And even hatchbacks with fewer cylinders and smaller displacement with well over 350hp!
b) I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested in engine technology and feeling that 350hp from a 3.5 litre forced induction engine isn't a whole lot. It certainly isn't on the ragged edge in the engine department, thought the car itself would seem to scream: "extreme" so maybe a bit of a mismatch if one really wants to nitpick. I would be fine with a naturally aspirated engine with that capacity but at least 120hp/l even if it would lose lots of torque. Fair enough though, this isn't much of an issue and in practice I'd really appreciate more of an 'endurance racing' feeling solution: an engine that you know you can spank all the time and it'll keep working like clockwork.
c) Lotus has a more powerful version of that same engine in another car. I wouldn't complain one bit if that version was in the Exige.

So the reason for my slight hesitation or whatever you might call it really is comparative (as you didn't want to hear), not as much an absolute thing. And as I said earlier and tried to convey every time I mentioned it: it feels a bit disappointing as a number due to the above facts, not because there would be anything wrong with the engine or performance of the car. And I'm not that absolute about it. Maybe I'm just careful and really try to consider how I'd feel about everything about the ownership experience. It's strange how us humans work. Actually, thanks to the comments here I'm feeling less miffed about the engine and more confident that I could go for a Sport 350 without feeling any doubts about that decision! There's nothing better out there right now anyway AFAIK...

I've bought a base model Porsche before because I am exactly the type of person who doesn't care about numbers that much or what others think, and I was happy with that. When I took it to the track I focused on performance relative to the car's abilities. Actually I felt the least need to even think about the more powerful version at the track, more so on the road but that's more due to the specifics of that model and has less to do with things people would experience with the Lotus. Then again, that experience may have triggered the desire to get the 'top model' this time around instead of the base model, just for a change. Sort of like after never having bought a completely new car one can feel the urge to get a brand new car just to experience it.

ETA: I'm surprised to find myself completely smitten with the Elise 220 Cup even though I usually don't really lust after any 4-pot cars, so that's thrown me off a bit too as that seems like such a perfect package IMO. I think I might be hoping to see an Exige as perfectly packaged and balanced as the 220 Cup and that's raised my expectations.

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 17:38

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 17:47

[NJH]

This is simple really, drive the car and decide of you like it or not, also drive the competitors cars and see if you like those better. Whinging on endlessly about Lotus not putting an LSD in the car is just plain stupid. If they say it doesn't need one then fair enough just judge a car on its merits not ones preconceived ideas about automotive engineering. Here is a challenge for you, test drive one and see if it spins up its inside wheel or suffers from traction problems coming out of junctions, tight turns etc. also then see if it is unstable under braking on your test drive. If your a half decent driver you can easily chuck the car about a bit and verify these points, if it doesn't have any of those problems then it would indeed look like the Lotus engineers are right and PH commentator is just another anti-Lotus troll.

[Maldini35]

Dan Trent said:

Edited down some onboard footage to give you a sense of a lap around Hethel in the Sport 350 - see here!

And if I can be parental for a moment be nice to Hamma - he makes a provocative argument but, I think, a reasonable and reasoned one. Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate and putting the car under the scrutiny those who'd ask 'but why not more power/bigger wheels/etc?' would subject it to. For what it's worth I asked all the same questions of the Lotus guys yesterday too! By all means argue the toss but play nice please.

Cheers,

Dan

Edited by Dan Trent on Saturday 12th December 16:57

I agree in the playing nicely bit. No need for personal insults when just discussing cars.

Dan - the car looked great around Hethel - how much did you enjoy that power slide?

By all means play devils advocate - we all do it from time to time but the fact is Lotus is on it's knees and yet still manages to produce a car of this quality at a competitive price.
Sure, they could put in the Evora 400 lump but what would be the knock on effect? It would make the car more expensive (that would get plenty of people on here whining) and would confuse and disrupt their model line up. Lotus need to keep selling Evora's too.
It would also add weight and reduce the all important feel of the car. And for what end? Raw stats for pub bragging rights and a few track day drivers ego's protected.
I'm sure owners can up the wick on the engine themselves and somebody will offer a suitable aftermarket LSD. Tuning and upgrading is all part of the fun of Lotus ownership after all.

[Ikobo]

The Exige S was an exhilarating car to drive when I test drove one a couple of years ago, I got as far as filling out all the paperwork to buy a new one then cancelled purely due to the impracticality of everyday use. This simply sounds like an amplified version which can only be a good thing in a car that was already a fantastic drive. Excellent post quoting the actual reasonings of the numbers etc from the engineers who build them, though as usual facts being ignored by many. Lotus will never win the PR battle against other brands unfortunately.