RE: Lotus looks ahead
Discussion
PhantomPH said:
As long as they continue to produce products that exist in the same market place, I doubt it.
Indeed. Like it or not, Porsche are the benchmark for mid-priced mainstream sports cars and that seems to be the market Lotus wants to compete in. Everyone who releases a 40-100k sports car gets compared to Porsche, it's not just Lotus. PhantomPH said:
but the fact remains that as a potential customer
Ah the power of potential its a bit like all the ifs and but's and maybe's............The Evora which ever model is a cracking car and if you really wanted a Lotus you would have one. (Guess I may get flamed but heck I may potentially buy a McLaren if only they would make one for my budget)
Toaster said:
Ah the power of potential its a bit like all the ifs and but's and maybe's............The Evora which ever model is a cracking car and if you really wanted a Lotus you would have one.
Lotus can't afford to only sell to people who "really want a Lotus". To be successful, they need to sell to people who want a sports car; to be really successful they need to sell to people who want a Porsche. Lyons said:
Thats the poit. It's not a crazy idea. It's a good idea. Porsche have prooven the concept in the 911 - no drawbacks, only a competitive advantage to rear engine. They sell pretty well.
Imagine a lightweight rear engine car, lotus ride and handling, every day practicality. It would sell too.
Sorry. It's a horrible idea. The 911 now sort of handles after 50 years of reengineering work and 50 years of annual "This year's 911 finally doesn't oversteer as horribly as they all have in the past (including the one we said didn't last year)" articles.Imagine a lightweight rear engine car, lotus ride and handling, every day practicality. It would sell too.
Throwing the biggest mass in the design out at the end of the assembly beyond the wheels is a detriment it's taken Porsche 50 years to engineer around and you'll notice that NONE of their cars designed since the early 1960s use that design pattern - not production cars nor race cars. Even Porsche's engineers knows it's an idiotic design choice. They just know how to sell it. The ONLY model that has it is the nostalgia based 911 and even it got it to save engineering costs as an updated 356. And even back then in the early 1960s Porsche's serious cars were starting to be mid-engined.
If you want Lotus handling you need to actually care about engineering and that means you do NOT go with a bad design just because somebody in marketing has convinced people that it's a good idea.
Toaster said:
PhantomPH said:
but the fact remains that as a potential customer
Ah the power of potential its a bit like all the ifs and but's and maybe's............The Evora which ever model is a cracking car and if you really wanted a Lotus you would have one. (Guess I may get flamed but heck I may potentially buy a McLaren if only they would make one for my budget)
As a potential customer (i.e. considering purchase of a mid-range sports car once I won the battle of the other half...) when Lotus announced their super-good looking Elan I paid close attention as an alternative to the obvious Cayman choice. Then that was canned and I'm back to the Cayman....and still trying to win the battle of the household!
In short - I wanted one and then didn't. Which was entirely my point. Budget has nothing to do with it.
Having had a 911 (997.1) it was clear to see that Porsche had largely dialled out any negative handling traits caused by the massively rear biased weight distribution and that they continue to do so with each generation of the car.
As much as I admire the Evora, I don't think Lotus would want to move the engine back any further because in reality with the 2 + 2 layout, it's already effectively rear engine. In fact the Evora S has a 39/61 weight distribution figure against a 41/59 for a 991.1(C2S).
As much as I admire the Evora, I don't think Lotus would want to move the engine back any further because in reality with the 2 + 2 layout, it's already effectively rear engine. In fact the Evora S has a 39/61 weight distribution figure against a 41/59 for a 991.1(C2S).
MikeGalos said:
Throwing the biggest mass in the design out at the end of the assembly beyond the wheels is a detriment it's taken Porsche 50 years to engineer around and you'll notice that NONE of their cars designed since the early 1960s use that design pattern - not production cars nor race cars. Even Porsche's engineers knows it's an idiotic design choice. They just know how to sell it. The ONLY model that has it is the nostalgia based 911 and even it got it to save engineering costs as an updated 356. And even back then in the early 1960s Porsche's serious cars were starting to be mid-engined.
If you want Lotus handling you need to actually care about engineering and that means you do NOT go with a bad design just because somebody in marketing has convinced people that it's a good idea.
So I think its about stepping back from the whole Porsche thing and RR development history.If you want Lotus handling you need to actually care about engineering and that means you do NOT go with a bad design just because somebody in marketing has convinced people that it's a good idea.
Can you create a practical, good looking mid engine 2+2? Agrubly not - Evoras haven't sold as well as they should have / could. IMHO it looks a bit dumpy, and is not a true day to day.
So then to get good cabin space you'd need longer wheel base. And end up with a Mondial.
So to get usable cabin space, with good proportions, its either engine at the front, or the back.
Front - every one knows the pros and cons of this.
But why not RR? Really?
I think a light weight, compact, great handeling, rear engine 2+2 Lotus with real day to day usability is appealing. Think A110, not Pork.
And look at how popular the A110 was...
The fact is that Lotus actually have new cars coming out next year, rather than the multitude of special editions which can only be a good thing. I for one can't wait for the 3-Eleven to appear, 450BHP+ in a car weighing less than 1000kg...you're going to need a new set of pants every time you drive it!
The fact is that Lotus actually have new cars coming out next year, rather than the multitude of special editions which can only be a good thing. I for one can't wait for the 3-Eleven to appear, 450BHP+ in a car weighing less than 1000kg...you're going to need a new set of pants every time you drive it!
dvs_dave said:
kambites said:
.....go straight to a VVA based electric drive range of vehicles.
The thing is pretty much exactly this is already being done but it has a Tesla badge on the bonnet instead. And it's hardly the runaway sales success it's big brother is which is telling.
Besides, it didn't do THAT badly; they sold 2500 of the things at over £80k each. I suspect that's more revenue than the Elise produced in the same time period?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 15th December 16:47
anonymous said:
[redacted]
they do have a special feeling and rewarding to drive 'right'. less so today now the driver is less dialled in, and pretty much mid engined too.Personally i thought the Cayman was a far better drive on the road than the equivalent 911, and it's on the road that the modern cars excel.
that said, 911s of all generations have a pretty strong racing heritage...
But i'm a Lotus man.
Happy to acknowledge P engineering excellence past and present.
The world (esp media and PH) compares everything to P. In doing so we can realise that steering feel and handling of Loti is superior, but P wins on drivetrain and interior quality. Good that we have choice and i choose Lotus.
Happy to acknowledge P engineering excellence past and present.
The world (esp media and PH) compares everything to P. In doing so we can realise that steering feel and handling of Loti is superior, but P wins on drivetrain and interior quality. Good that we have choice and i choose Lotus.
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