RE: Lotus looks ahead
Discussion
Much as Porsche make beautifully built and finished cars, but having experienced several, I can honestly say for me my Evora and Exige S run rings round them for driver connectivity, balance and enjoyment...in fact 911's feel unbalanced and dodgy to me...
Totally accept the drive train is not as good but whilst frustrating at times also adds to the fun/challenge/character.
They are supposed to be sports cars, which means fun, not tectonic...it's all down to the brand and Porchester is a brilliant one. If Porsche made the Evora loads of people would have driven it and realised how good it was...still I like it being a well kept secret.
Totally accept the drive train is not as good but whilst frustrating at times also adds to the fun/challenge/character.
They are supposed to be sports cars, which means fun, not tectonic...it's all down to the brand and Porchester is a brilliant one. If Porsche made the Evora loads of people would have driven it and realised how good it was...still I like it being a well kept secret.
kambites said:
Lotus can't afford to only sell to people who "really want a Lotus". To be successful, they need to sell to people who want a sports car; to be really successful they need to sell to people who want a Porsche.
I agree in part with the 'sports car' but if some (Most) feel Porsche is for them then they won't look at a Lotus !PhantomPH said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here by accepting I may have worded that slightly ambiguously - allow me to try again:
As a potential customer (i.e. considering purchase of a mid-range sports car once I won the battle of the other half...) when Lotus announced their super-good looking Elan I paid close attention as an alternative to the obvious Cayman choice. Then that was canned and I'm back to the Cayman....and still trying to win the battle of the household!
In short - I wanted one and then didn't. Which was entirely my point. Budget has nothing to do with it.
Clearly you have a challenge then if you have no budget issues but have to convince the family it may well have been the Elan would always been a potential purchase. I'm not being critical but to any company potential purchases are useless unless they are converted to cash and the current Lotus strategy is stabilising the company and growing sales (to those who are not just potential purchases). As a potential customer (i.e. considering purchase of a mid-range sports car once I won the battle of the other half...) when Lotus announced their super-good looking Elan I paid close attention as an alternative to the obvious Cayman choice. Then that was canned and I'm back to the Cayman....and still trying to win the battle of the household!
In short - I wanted one and then didn't. Which was entirely my point. Budget has nothing to do with it.
kambites said:
dvs_dave said:
kambites said:
.....go straight to a VVA based electric drive range of vehicles.
The thing is pretty much exactly this is already being done but it has a Tesla badge on the bonnet instead. And it's hardly the runaway sales success it's big brother is which is telling.
Besides, it didn't do THAT badly; they sold 2500 of the things at over £80k each. I suspect that's more revenue than the Elise produced in the same time period?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 15th December 16:47
His discovery was that by the time you had driven out of London to where the roads were fun, after a few minutes of hooning you barely had enough left in the batteries to creep home.
As the vast majority of Westerners with big disposable income do live in/around cities I wonder if the small sports car EV model is always going to be uncommercial?
DonkeyApple said:
My neighbour has one of these and in a conversation about it he explained that what he learned very quickly about the car was that it was a city car and that once you realised it was a city car then you realised it was pretty pointless.
His discovery was that by the time you had driven out of London to where the roads were fun, after a few minutes of hooning you barely had enough left in the batteries to creep home.
As the vast majority of Westerners with big disposable income do live in/around cities I wonder if the small sports car EV model is always going to be uncommercial?
just a matter of time to improve range. and a 30 min coffee break quick charge as wellHis discovery was that by the time you had driven out of London to where the roads were fun, after a few minutes of hooning you barely had enough left in the batteries to creep home.
As the vast majority of Westerners with big disposable income do live in/around cities I wonder if the small sports car EV model is always going to be uncommercial?
Plus the fact that sometime in the future ICE maybe be banned from city centres.
Plus the fact that taxes may make an EV fun car more viable
CABC said:
DonkeyApple said:
My neighbour has one of these and in a conversation about it he explained that what he learned very quickly about the car was that it was a city car and that once you realised it was a city car then you realised it was pretty pointless.
His discovery was that by the time you had driven out of London to where the roads were fun, after a few minutes of hooning you barely had enough left in the batteries to creep home.
As the vast majority of Westerners with big disposable income do live in/around cities I wonder if the small sports car EV model is always going to be uncommercial?
just a matter of time to improve range. and a 30 min coffee break quick charge as wellHis discovery was that by the time you had driven out of London to where the roads were fun, after a few minutes of hooning you barely had enough left in the batteries to creep home.
As the vast majority of Westerners with big disposable income do live in/around cities I wonder if the small sports car EV model is always going to be uncommercial?
Plus the fact that sometime in the future ICE maybe be banned from city centres.
Plus the fact that taxes may make an EV fun car more viable
Sports cars are already a massive niche and I suspect a niche within a niche, like the earlier towing requirement, is a very long way from being commercially viable. EV equivalents of the most popular car types is the way forward and I think that is SUVs and hatchbacks. My guess is that the EV SUV will transpire to easily be the biggest seller until batteries become cheap enough that EVs are genuinely cheaper than ICE to buy and run.
Toaster said:
PhantomPH said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here by accepting I may have worded that slightly ambiguously - allow me to try again:
As a potential customer (i.e. considering purchase of a mid-range sports car once I won the battle of the other half...) when Lotus announced their super-good looking Elan I paid close attention as an alternative to the obvious Cayman choice. Then that was canned and I'm back to the Cayman....and still trying to win the battle of the household!
In short - I wanted one and then didn't. Which was entirely my point. Budget has nothing to do with it.
Clearly you have a challenge then if you have no budget issues but have to convince the family it may well have been the Elan would always been a potential purchase. I'm not being critical but to any company potential purchases are useless unless they are converted to cash and the current Lotus strategy is stabilising the company and growing sales (to those who are not just potential purchases). As a potential customer (i.e. considering purchase of a mid-range sports car once I won the battle of the other half...) when Lotus announced their super-good looking Elan I paid close attention as an alternative to the obvious Cayman choice. Then that was canned and I'm back to the Cayman....and still trying to win the battle of the household!
In short - I wanted one and then didn't. Which was entirely my point. Budget has nothing to do with it.
As an aside to the first bit - the blockage has always been the impractical nature of a two-seat car - as the 'good car'. So you spend all that money and the car gets under-used because it's impractical. Now the kids are getting older, it's less of a challenge as teenager never leave their rooms!
The problem now is that prices of cars that were on my list, seem to be increasing faster than my salary has.PhantomPH said:
The highlighted bit is key here - they gained someone who could have made that conversion. They lost that when the products failed to arrive. It's why they are building an SUV - they want to be a 'potential purchase' for those who would otherwise buy an Evoque/Macan/F-Pace/etc.
As an aside to the first bit - the blockage has always been the impractical nature of a two-seat car - as the 'good car'. So you spend all that money and the car gets under-used because it's impractical. Now the kids are getting older, it's less of a challenge as teenager never leave their rooms! The problem now is that prices of cars that were on my list, seem to be increasing faster than my salary has.
Its a tricky balance with a family on getting the right car, I am fortunate in that I do not have that issue, but I have to say your right in that the car pricing is increasing faster than my salary as well......just need a suitable plan to get a Evora 400 without breaking the bankAs an aside to the first bit - the blockage has always been the impractical nature of a two-seat car - as the 'good car'. So you spend all that money and the car gets under-used because it's impractical. Now the kids are getting older, it's less of a challenge as teenager never leave their rooms!
The problem now is that prices of cars that were on my list, seem to be increasing faster than my salary has.PhantomPH said:
I got really excited about Lotus a few years back with those beautiful designs for the Elan etc. They were sadly still born and I've just not really looked again since then. Something about the design leaves me cold these days. Shame, because I really want to like them.
I mean - look at this! I can see where Lambo nicked the design for the Hurracan from, now!
They were some very kidney-worthy designs. Such a shame that's all it amounted to.I mean - look at this! I can see where Lambo nicked the design for the Hurracan from, now!
456hp on the 311!?!?!?!!! Lotus sure as hell isnt playing around anymore are there? I am VERY much liking what i just read; looks like 2016 is going to be a great year for Lotus.
Well, i don't know how all of you feel, but i for one am fully cheering them on with vested interest! Despite the new drive train costing $20,000, you got to figure Lotus will be finally making consistent profits on the basis that surely the costs of the mainsource of their engines, i.e. Toyota cant cost them all that much. Especially when you figure Lotus is using Toyota engines and drivevtrains across their product line. Lets hope they use whatever monies they make for PR and advertisement campaigning.
As an aside, i do want to voice my personal anguish over the pretty clear idea, it seems awfully clear to me anyhow, that an Esprit is not in development. Or if it is, it is on the back burner of projects it seems. I would much rather see Lotus invest their time and money in othet projects instead of a damn SUV. I mean come on, am i alone in thinking that such an idea is pure rubbish?!? If Lotus wants to do something other than sports cars, for damn sakes do another sport sedan like the Carlton. Or perhaps revive and revise somewhat the plans from what's his face, oh man i just forgot his damn name, you know the last CEO Lotus just had and fired, the guy from Ferrari... Danny Bahar isnt it? Instead of an SUV pull up the plans for the Eterne OR go the total opposite way and FFS give the people what weve wanted since 1991, and that is to develop an entirely new for 2016 Elan and have it be of course THE go-to entry level Lotus. Price it right and offer just enough creature comforts so it isnt received and compared to the Elise by the auto industry.
You know Lotus can do such a vehicle in record time giving the fact they have their versatile platform, and of course toyota engines and drive train, and least of which but most of all in terms of know-how/experience Lotus would be able to produce such a vehicle probably better and faster than anyone else. Truth be told, as much as i want to see an all new Esprit, i would be just as excited for Lotus to introduce an all new entry-level sports car, perhaps carrying the Elan name itself. Do you agree?
In my eyes, the new Exige and Evora 400 are such amazing beasts, especially the Exige, both of which have been and continue to be received quite well and I do believe very strongly that Lotus will be in the best shape its been in in decades come this time next year, possibly two years.
And lastly, just as an aside, i was looking at pics of the Bahar Esprit, which when it was unveiled did nothing for me in terms of stirring my soul and so on. However, i must admit that recently i have grown to like it very much. I would absolutely LOVE to see Lotus at some point revive the Esprit and make it a $150k car, and one that will lay the smack down on the likes of comparable Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and eveb McLaren. I know Lotus can do it. And if they do it right, people would pay the higher price tag.
Well, i don't know how all of you feel, but i for one am fully cheering them on with vested interest! Despite the new drive train costing $20,000, you got to figure Lotus will be finally making consistent profits on the basis that surely the costs of the mainsource of their engines, i.e. Toyota cant cost them all that much. Especially when you figure Lotus is using Toyota engines and drivevtrains across their product line. Lets hope they use whatever monies they make for PR and advertisement campaigning.
As an aside, i do want to voice my personal anguish over the pretty clear idea, it seems awfully clear to me anyhow, that an Esprit is not in development. Or if it is, it is on the back burner of projects it seems. I would much rather see Lotus invest their time and money in othet projects instead of a damn SUV. I mean come on, am i alone in thinking that such an idea is pure rubbish?!? If Lotus wants to do something other than sports cars, for damn sakes do another sport sedan like the Carlton. Or perhaps revive and revise somewhat the plans from what's his face, oh man i just forgot his damn name, you know the last CEO Lotus just had and fired, the guy from Ferrari... Danny Bahar isnt it? Instead of an SUV pull up the plans for the Eterne OR go the total opposite way and FFS give the people what weve wanted since 1991, and that is to develop an entirely new for 2016 Elan and have it be of course THE go-to entry level Lotus. Price it right and offer just enough creature comforts so it isnt received and compared to the Elise by the auto industry.
You know Lotus can do such a vehicle in record time giving the fact they have their versatile platform, and of course toyota engines and drive train, and least of which but most of all in terms of know-how/experience Lotus would be able to produce such a vehicle probably better and faster than anyone else. Truth be told, as much as i want to see an all new Esprit, i would be just as excited for Lotus to introduce an all new entry-level sports car, perhaps carrying the Elan name itself. Do you agree?
In my eyes, the new Exige and Evora 400 are such amazing beasts, especially the Exige, both of which have been and continue to be received quite well and I do believe very strongly that Lotus will be in the best shape its been in in decades come this time next year, possibly two years.
And lastly, just as an aside, i was looking at pics of the Bahar Esprit, which when it was unveiled did nothing for me in terms of stirring my soul and so on. However, i must admit that recently i have grown to like it very much. I would absolutely LOVE to see Lotus at some point revive the Esprit and make it a $150k car, and one that will lay the smack down on the likes of comparable Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and eveb McLaren. I know Lotus can do it. And if they do it right, people would pay the higher price tag.
PDUF said:
Question is: when does Lotus plan to fit the 400 ps version in the Exige?
Pierre
The Exige has become my clear cut dream Lotus i am after once it reaches the U.S. second hand market. I struggled in my head for many months whether to get another Esprit but a V8 this time (10 years ago i owned an 89 Esprit na), get an Evora S OR wait for the newest Exige i can afford second hand. As much as i would love another Esprit, i want to be able to drive it everyday and any time without worry. This leaves of course the Elise, Exige or Evora. I dont want an Elise. If im going to drive something so pure and sparce it must be the Exige clearly due to its obvious performance and looks IMO advantage.Pierre
It actually comes down to an Evora S or the Exige Roadster. Regarding the Evora, i love the idea that it can be used like a corvette or carrera etc is used; probably with more reliability due to the toyota drivevtrain. I love the idea that the Evora S can be tuned with ease due to it being super charged. I like the idea that its larger and has back seats that i can throw my briefcase and coat or whatever else instead of having to have it riding up front with me or on the lap of a passenger, or trunkinh it.
This may sound silly, but one thing that sways my decision more towards the Exige roadster is because the Evora doesnt have a removable roof. I wish Lotus would offer a t-top version or a one piece removable like the Esprit had. I wouldn't want the Evora in a fully convertible option, but definitely a removable roof like the Esprit so it keeps alot of the rigidity.
The Exige Roadster to me looks stunning. Especially the pics of it at the auto show where it was sparklimg blue outside with a very elegany and sporty looking tan interior. The car is absolutely beautiful, both hard top (love the spoiler) and roadster version. And the best part is the Exige can not only be tuned quite easily as well, but i dont think anyone could argue that its performance stock is extremely impressive and more than enough.
Its a VERY tough call to have to choose between the two. There are days when i think to myself, i dont know if i want to do the whole loud and hardcore thing everyday you know. What the Evora S offers is damn near perfect isnt it? Something you can see yourself getting into after a long grueling day at work, knowing you have an hour vommute home ahead of you, and being able to just sit back and relax comfortably for a nice and easy, but spirited ride home. Which reminds me, i very much like the feature on the Evora 400 of the exhaust being able to be put from mediocre to all out loud! Much like what pontiac offered on their last GTO monstrosity.
When people compare Lotus to the other brands out there, they are simply discussing the competition. The car has to make money for the company, and marketing is the key. It has to be different, but profitable, and these small-market cars like this are not getting the makers rich. How many of the old, typically English sports cars are around, and how many are owned by British people? Why is that?
ESOG said:
456hp on the 311!?!?!?!!! Lotus sure as hell isnt playing around anymore are there? I am VERY much liking what i just read; looks like 2016 is going to be a great year for Lotus.
Well, i don't know how all of you feel, but i for one am fully cheering them on with vested interest! Despite the new drive train costing $20,000, you got to figure Lotus will be finally making consistent profits on the basis that surely the costs of the mainsource of their engines, i.e. Toyota cant cost them all that much. Especially when you figure Lotus is using Toyota engines and drivevtrains across their product line. Lets hope they use whatever monies they make for PR and advertisement campaigning.
As an aside, i do want to voice my personal anguish over the pretty clear idea, it seems awfully clear to me anyhow, that an Esprit is not in development. Or if it is, it is on the back burner of projects it seems. I would much rather see Lotus invest their time and money in othet projects instead of a damn SUV. I mean come on, am i alone in thinking that such an idea is pure rubbish?!? If Lotus wants to do something other than sports cars, for damn sakes do another sport sedan like the Carlton. Or perhaps revive and revise somewhat the plans from what's his face, oh man i just forgot his damn name, you know the last CEO Lotus just had and fired, the guy from Ferrari... Danny Bahar isnt it? Instead of an SUV pull up the plans for the Eterne OR go the total opposite way and FFS give the people what weve wanted since 1991, and that is to develop an entirely new for 2016 Elan and have it be of course THE go-to entry level Lotus. Price it right and offer just enough creature comforts so it isnt received and compared to the Elise by the auto industry.
You know Lotus can do such a vehicle in record time giving the fact they have their versatile platform, and of course toyota engines and drive train, and least of which but most of all in terms of know-how/experience Lotus would be able to produce such a vehicle probably better and faster than anyone else. Truth be told, as much as i want to see an all new Esprit, i would be just as excited for Lotus to introduce an all new entry-level sports car, perhaps carrying the Elan name itself. Do you agree?
In my eyes, the new Exige and Evora 400 are such amazing beasts, especially the Exige, both of which have been and continue to be received quite well and I do believe very strongly that Lotus will be in the best shape its been in in decades come this time next year, possibly two years.
And lastly, just as an aside, i was looking at pics of the Bahar Esprit, which when it was unveiled did nothing for me in terms of stirring my soul and so on. However, i must admit that recently i have grown to like it very much. I would absolutely LOVE to see Lotus at some point revive the Esprit and make it a $150k car, and one that will lay the smack down on the likes of comparable Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and eveb McLaren. I know Lotus can do it. And if they do it right, people would pay the higher price tag.
To me the SUV seems blindingly obvious for Lotus. Here is a niche that is not only growing rapidly but is a prestige niche that can carry huge margins. At the same time SUVs have so much weight that it is the absolutely perfect segment to apply Lotus' 'add more lightness' ethos. And obviously, not being a two seater they have a much larger target market. Well, i don't know how all of you feel, but i for one am fully cheering them on with vested interest! Despite the new drive train costing $20,000, you got to figure Lotus will be finally making consistent profits on the basis that surely the costs of the mainsource of their engines, i.e. Toyota cant cost them all that much. Especially when you figure Lotus is using Toyota engines and drivevtrains across their product line. Lets hope they use whatever monies they make for PR and advertisement campaigning.
As an aside, i do want to voice my personal anguish over the pretty clear idea, it seems awfully clear to me anyhow, that an Esprit is not in development. Or if it is, it is on the back burner of projects it seems. I would much rather see Lotus invest their time and money in othet projects instead of a damn SUV. I mean come on, am i alone in thinking that such an idea is pure rubbish?!? If Lotus wants to do something other than sports cars, for damn sakes do another sport sedan like the Carlton. Or perhaps revive and revise somewhat the plans from what's his face, oh man i just forgot his damn name, you know the last CEO Lotus just had and fired, the guy from Ferrari... Danny Bahar isnt it? Instead of an SUV pull up the plans for the Eterne OR go the total opposite way and FFS give the people what weve wanted since 1991, and that is to develop an entirely new for 2016 Elan and have it be of course THE go-to entry level Lotus. Price it right and offer just enough creature comforts so it isnt received and compared to the Elise by the auto industry.
You know Lotus can do such a vehicle in record time giving the fact they have their versatile platform, and of course toyota engines and drive train, and least of which but most of all in terms of know-how/experience Lotus would be able to produce such a vehicle probably better and faster than anyone else. Truth be told, as much as i want to see an all new Esprit, i would be just as excited for Lotus to introduce an all new entry-level sports car, perhaps carrying the Elan name itself. Do you agree?
In my eyes, the new Exige and Evora 400 are such amazing beasts, especially the Exige, both of which have been and continue to be received quite well and I do believe very strongly that Lotus will be in the best shape its been in in decades come this time next year, possibly two years.
And lastly, just as an aside, i was looking at pics of the Bahar Esprit, which when it was unveiled did nothing for me in terms of stirring my soul and so on. However, i must admit that recently i have grown to like it very much. I would absolutely LOVE to see Lotus at some point revive the Esprit and make it a $150k car, and one that will lay the smack down on the likes of comparable Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and eveb McLaren. I know Lotus can do it. And if they do it right, people would pay the higher price tag.
If Lotus were to build a genuine 'Lotus' SUV, something that weighed far less than the competition, handled better and was simply the most sporting SUV on the market then I think it would sell in numbers that would dwarf all their historical attempts to sell small sports cars. I'm thinking of something akin to a Bowler product.
But, my understanding is that the project isn't this at all but is essentially to build a Dacia Duster end of the market vehicle to be thrown together in an Asian factory and then sold to the poorer end of the Asian market. So more inline with Lotus' pre Bahar philosophy of trying to sell goods to people with absolutely no money. Their old 'just add cheapness' mantra.
But I guess they won't be building a high performance SUV for the same reason they won't be building an Esprit and that is because they haven't the money to do so and arguably, after two decades of promoting the brand as 'cheap' they don't yet have the cache to sell these products at the right price point. So banging out a load of cheap tat to Asian buyers and hoping their Western market doesn't pay too much attention to it is probably the best way to shore up revenues well enough to be able to invest in new products.
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