RE: Has turbocharging ruined the 911
Discussion
xox1t said:
These complaints are getting silly. We've got the new Spyder, and yes in Sport Plus mode it rev matches for you. But there's a simple fix, should you wish - actually heel and toe yourself and it overrides the system completely! No button pushing required, problem solved.
who actually heel an toe's on there morning commute through the city (where I see most 911's)...answer no one an thus porsche put in the software. Think of it like this.Sales guy: With the new Sytem the car matches the revs so you no longer need to heal an toe
Customer: Nods yeah yeah cool, does it have parking sensors...
Sales guy: they are £395
Customer: Great yeah, where do a sign
Win for Porsche WIn for the customer and really a win for all of use as you can still drive the car as you wish but you just dont have to.
Oh an the 911R sounds like a GT3 with a normal body. Stripped out an entry level are not the same thing especailly where Porsche is concerend.
I would like a 2 seat RWD 911 manual in red that was light but head leather aircon an nav. It would need to do 0-60 in sub 5 (though I would not drive it as such) and what 170 mph.
Thing is I suspect like the GT86 everyone who acutally bought it would moan
Dafuq said:
Yes, yes, yes. This Turbo discussion is all very well, with valid points made on both sides.
What we really need to know Dan, is where are you up to with the Porsche model making, and has your mini mechanicing ruined the image of Porsche?
(Life long worshipper of the 911 shape, there have been a few wobbles on the way but generally the most awesome vehicle ever. In my view, it is like a fine wine, whilst other upstart brasher marquee are much more alco-pop. Absolute class)
Guess what is on the desk right now! My efforts on the wheelarches possibly has too. What we really need to know Dan, is where are you up to with the Porsche model making, and has your mini mechanicing ruined the image of Porsche?
(Life long worshipper of the 911 shape, there have been a few wobbles on the way but generally the most awesome vehicle ever. In my view, it is like a fine wine, whilst other upstart brasher marquee are much more alco-pop. Absolute class)
Dan
MaxA said:
Turbos are part of the automotive landscape nowadays: this is not because of Porsche or VAG, it's because of regulation. The question is, can Porsche or anyone else, do a good turbo engine? And it seems to me, that they can. Motoring Life - as we know it - is not over yet.
Turbos are only controversial now because the few remaining NA champions are going that way. It wasn't so long ago that a turbo defined the car - Escort RS Turbo, Sierra Cosworth, Renault 5 GT Turbo, Uno Turbo, early 911 turbos et al. And now some folk feel it ruins a car. NA is all about building up to it. As said by a previous poster, people don't want to wait for their power anymore. We live in an instant gratification society now.
What defines a 'good' turbo engine? Modern turbo engines are often criticised for being so linear they don't even feel turboed, which takes us back to the good old days of laggy hot hatches. What do people actually want? There's probably still some development mileage left in compound turbocharging if people want more top end.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
System does it pretty late - it doesn't know which gear you're necessarily going for, so only blips the required amount as you slot home the chosen gear, by which time you've blipped if you're going to.Agree no downside but it's really not an issue. And of course, not all have PCM!
xox1t said:
System does it pretty late - it doesn't know which gear you're necessarily going for, so only blips the required amount as you slot home the chosen gear, by which time you've blipped if you're going to.
Agree no downside but it's really not an issue. And of course, not all have PCM!
so if you don't h&t very well and don't blip enough will the system increase your blip without you necessarily knowing who did that fabulous d/shift?Agree no downside but it's really not an issue. And of course, not all have PCM!
CABC said:
xox1t said:
System does it pretty late - it doesn't know which gear you're necessarily going for, so only blips the required amount as you slot home the chosen gear, by which time you've blipped if you're going to.
Agree no downside but it's really not an issue. And of course, not all have PCM!
so if you don't h&t very well and don't blip enough will the system increase your blip without you necessarily knowing who did that fabulous d/shift?Agree no downside but it's really not an issue. And of course, not all have PCM!
xox1t said:
Nope - it happily lets you c*ck it up spectacularly all by yourself!
OK that's good.so if you blip when in neutral (or just clutch in?) it's smart enough to stand completely back and do nothing?
That's good. On a spirited run i want to h&t and hopefully get it right, so rewarding.
if i cock it it up i want to know!
suffolk009 said:
PunterCam said:
In photos it's a good looking car. In the the flesh the 991 seems massive though, and looks a bit silly on the road. In reality it's "only" 8" longer than a 964, and maybe a couple wider, but there's no real delicacy to it anymore.. It dwarfs a Focus, and I don't find that attractive.
The turbo engine wouldn't bother me as the n/a engines have been dull for years now. The 3.8 991 I drove sounded offensive, in a bad way. A crap sound made loud. From what I've heard the new turbo sounds more like the 3.2s, which is a lovely sound. I dare say the sports exhaust ruins it (Porsche never get this right) but hey, as long as it's louder right... The stuff written about the manual box rev matching would entirely put me off though - at that point you know an idiot has been involved in the design of your car, and I hate idiots and refuse to tolerate them. A line of code and a touch-screen menu? Nah, f
k em. Genius.
There's no polite way to put it. That car has a fat arse.The turbo engine wouldn't bother me as the n/a engines have been dull for years now. The 3.8 991 I drove sounded offensive, in a bad way. A crap sound made loud. From what I've heard the new turbo sounds more like the 3.2s, which is a lovely sound. I dare say the sports exhaust ruins it (Porsche never get this right) but hey, as long as it's louder right... The stuff written about the manual box rev matching would entirely put me off though - at that point you know an idiot has been involved in the design of your car, and I hate idiots and refuse to tolerate them. A line of code and a touch-screen menu? Nah, f
k em. Genius. Regarding changing technology, Heraclitus said it best.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
bencollins said:
Regarding changing technology, Heraclitus said it best.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
very apt, as A Frankel did just that with two 911s in this week's Autocar."No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
The engineers will develop all these technologies and *can* produce great driver's cars. But mostly their incredible resources and attention are focused a little to one side - on emissions and premium market positioning. epas, throttle-by-wire, brakes can all be made driver focused and in the GT series no doubt they will be. At the affordable end of the market i look to the niche manufacturers and big boys like Toyota to add a little spice to their range with real sports cars. Technology and progress are great, it's just that the Germans are intent on "Premium" and not diluting that position.
CABC said:
bencollins said:
Regarding changing technology, Heraclitus said it best.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
very apt, as A Frankel did just that with two 911s in this week's Autocar."No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
The engineers will develop all these technologies and *can* produce great driver's cars. But mostly their incredible resources and attention are focused a little to one side - on emissions and premium market positioning. epas, throttle-by-wire, brakes can all be made driver focused and in the GT series no doubt they will be. At the affordable end of the market i look to the niche manufacturers and big boys like Toyota to add a little spice to their range with real sports cars. Technology and progress are great, it's just that the Germans are intent on "Premium" and not diluting that position.
I suppose this is what the 911 R is all about, but someone said earlier than Porsche were selling 6 in the UK. A bit like the Cayman GT4 then! Porsche therefore remain a luxury car maker with an air of performance about most of their products, not a dedicated sports car manufacturer like Lotus. There's nothing wrong with that, they're very profitable, but that's how I see Porsche these days. The GT3, GT4 etc are Porsche's driver's cars, and probably sell in similarly small numbers to Lotus' cars funnily enough!anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agree. This is why I hope Toyota, Honda, Mazda and others will give us drivers something to enjoy. I wonder why VW don't deploy some Porsche technology in a lightweight sportscar? The sharing works the otherway. Porsche won't produce anything cheap for good reasons. But why not a vw shell on a Cayman chassis?
Progress with hybrids is interesting too. The P1 using battery power to reduce effect of lag is great. 850k less and I'm in. It'll come...hopefully
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Dismissing any car on the basis that it is different, without the car having been made, and having little idea of what the manufacturer is planning is very odd. I'd drive the 4 cylinder turbo before dismissing it and to be totally honest the original 2.5 was hardly anything special!Orchardab said:
Love the Clio 182 pipes!
I am the other way and prefer the standard exhaust set up to look at as I believe the Clio 182 pipes are for the sports exhaust whereas the standard exhaust set up is a quad set up(two pipes at each side). I thought the sports set up would be four pipes rather than the two pipes to be fair though.
What a load of old whingeing! There are truly brilliant sportscars on sale today and Porsche is building some of them.
Mind you, if I was spending north of £100k I'd be very tempted to look closely at that new £125k McLaren. Oh no! Silly me ... it can't be any good ... it's got turbochargers...
Since Porsche has been doing acclaimed turbo installations for 40 years one wonders why the luddites have now decided to declare that it's a problem. And if I recall correctly, Mr Lotus has been boosting his cars for nearly 40 years as well.
So, all you Victor Meldrews, get out of your SUVs and get into some sportscars!
Mind you, if I was spending north of £100k I'd be very tempted to look closely at that new £125k McLaren. Oh no! Silly me ... it can't be any good ... it's got turbochargers...
Since Porsche has been doing acclaimed turbo installations for 40 years one wonders why the luddites have now decided to declare that it's a problem. And if I recall correctly, Mr Lotus has been boosting his cars for nearly 40 years as well.
So, all you Victor Meldrews, get out of your SUVs and get into some sportscars!
F1 power of the yester years in cars driven by ordinary mortals was bound to dampen the driving experience/involvement with the necessary nanny state devices.
Less power, less weight, fewer toys, nice sound - why a basic GT4 has Porsche fans excited.
Too much torque ruined the feeling?
Less power, less weight, fewer toys, nice sound - why a basic GT4 has Porsche fans excited.
Too much torque ruined the feeling?
Ozzie Osmond said:
What a load of old whingeing! There are truly brilliant sportscars on sale today and Porsche is building some of them.
Mind you, if I was spending north of £100k I'd be very tempted to look closely at that new £125k McLaren. Oh no! Silly me ... it can't be any good ... it's got turbochargers...
Since Porsche has been doing acclaimed turbo installations for 40 years one wonders why the luddites have now decided to declare that it's a problem. And if I recall correctly, Mr Lotus has been boosting his cars for nearly 40 years as well.
So, all you Victor Meldrews, get out of your SUVs and get into some sportscars!
Au contraire dear boy. New tech is great. Porsche are deploying it very well. I just want cake.... I've not driven latest 911 but its chassis is apparently even better; crisp, sharp yet compliant ... But for me such a big car and reaching 70 in 2nd is not my kind of fun. I know why they're doing it though.Mind you, if I was spending north of £100k I'd be very tempted to look closely at that new £125k McLaren. Oh no! Silly me ... it can't be any good ... it's got turbochargers...
Since Porsche has been doing acclaimed turbo installations for 40 years one wonders why the luddites have now decided to declare that it's a problem. And if I recall correctly, Mr Lotus has been boosting his cars for nearly 40 years as well.
So, all you Victor Meldrews, get out of your SUVs and get into some sportscars!
The 911 is more Panamera than sporty 964. The technology is there to produce a much better sports car than the old 964 or current 911, but they're not going down that path. Fair enough.
So I'll downsize to a Caterham/Lotus/Zenos/TVR and you relax comfortably in your Porsche.
The thing is, a lot of people are complaining about the change to Turbo units from NA but how many of those people have actually driven the car? I have and I can tell you it is a very different experience from your traditional turbo motor. I could not detect any lag and the engine revved very freely with no lack of noise or power, yes it may have more mid range torque but I find that to be no bad thing when combined with a 7 speed PDK box. When driving in normal mode you often find yourself exiting a roundabout or slow corner in 7th gear and you find yourself lacking in grunt until you change down several gears. With the turbo motor it is not such an issue. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't tend to drive around in my 911 in max attack mode 100% of the time. That is the beauty of the car, it a usable every day performance car, I even occasionally use mine for runs to the tip......just because 
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