RE: Winkelmann's Lamborghini - end of an era? PH Blog

[DonkeyApple]

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

I think this is exactly right. For most people the removing of these flaws has made for better cars. For a few, like me, I think flaws are absolutely essential and that they define cars and are what can either make them worse than a Golf or better than a Golf.

One thing I know I don't want is one of the many fantastic, modern sports cars or super cars which are 'Just Like A Golf'.

[Diablo SV]

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

That was then. This is now.

You talk with rose tinted spectacles where people like Jay Kay sell his Diablo as the new aspiration in reality is a LaFerrari/P1/Pagani etc. You say that no-one can afford a Sesto Elemento or Veneno when in reality more people in the world today can afford to buy these two cars than could afford any Lamborghini in the 70s/80s!

Lamborghini's of old are just that - old. Unreliable. Uncomfortable. Awkward to live with. People who actually buy them nowadays care that they are reliable, that the electrics work, that they are relatively comfortable to live with and they certainly don't really compare them to the Countach or Diablo and why should they? If someone wants a scary, unreliable and uncomfortable Lamborghini they can simply buy an old one. If the fact that one can use and live with a Gallardo or Huracan as a daily driver means the loss of what you call spirit then personally I think it's the best thing to happen to them. Lamborghini would otherwise have been consigned to the history books decades ago.

Also, anyone driving any car at 180mph without their heart pumping is probably dead.

If a Countach never got your heart pumping pal then yes you are correct you are clinically dead and the only petrol going around in your head would be how much it costs to fill the tank up . Seriously mate , you need to ask yourself why classic cars are prized possessions and looked after and cherished , you need to visit a few classic car events see what beautiful art is on display , iconic cars from the 1930,s and upwards . If it's all about the latest fastest carbon fibre gadget then that's just fashion pal nothing else you might as well be driving a Tesla . Rose tinted glasses , yeah maybe you are right , but I'm older enough to look good wearing them and cool enough to put them on in the first place . If you haven't enjoyed your cars from the past you simply haven't lived and haven't driven the cars how they should be driven or understood how or why they should be driven in that manner . Maybe you need to check if your pulse is still there , I suspect you never had one in the first place but I reserve judgement on that as I don't like to make assumptions of people I haven't meet . Best you hop over to Bargain section as Supercars appear to be out of your genre . As for Venenos and Sestos mate there's only probably around 20 cars built , so I doubt very much they will eclipse sales of the Countach anytime soon do you , even if people could afford a couple of million quid on a car .

Old enough to look good wearing rose-tinted spectacles while conveniently sidestepping the fact that under Audi and Mr Winkelmann, Lamborghini exists and actually thrives today precisely because the cars are more reliable, relatively comfortable and liveable with than the cars of old - in other words, they cater to want their market want. If they didn't then the simply wouldn't sell and would not be in business any more. I'd much prefer the chance to aspire to own a Aventador SV than not have the choice at all. If you feel the need to chest-thump then I pity you.

No-one under the age of 30 really cares about owning new cars, much less old cars - it's a different era. You talk about the price of classic cars but it's funny how the very latest ones like the Laferrari, 918, P1, Paganis and Koenigseggs et al don't seem to lose value either so what's your point?

I couldn't care less about the Apple car but I do know that the winners are those who look forward and don't dwell in the past. Classic cars are analogue and todays world is definitely digital. I accept it, if you don't then that's up to you. It's 2016 now - time to step out of the 70s.

Edited by sidesauce on Sunday 7th February 14:30

Yep , digital age , digital way of thinking I suppose . Oh well, I will have to resign myself to the fact Pistonheads will soon be renamed Digital Chip Heads or SimCard Brigade . Good luck with your forward thinking , me I'd rather have a lung full of black smoke and internal combustion engine to tinker with , I guess youngsters don't have the time nowadays they are too busy heading in the right direction , just throw the car away and buy the latest Beama and think they are moving forwards at a rapid rate of knots lol

[sidesauce]

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

sidesauce said:

Hitch78 said:

I do not believe they have become any less wild, they've just become less flawed. I think a lot of people get stuck on that. I hope Winkelmann stays.

This.

When I first saw the Lamborghini Countach there were no flaws , it was perfect as it still is today . It simply did not matter if the engine drank more petrol than other cars or that the electrics failed on occasion or that it broke down and was unreliable . I knew full well why the Countach was built and I knew full well how much of an impact it had on my life , I grew up with it on my bedroom wall , I dreamed of the day when I could own one , I had a plan now in my life to work hard and be able to afford one , I never had a plan before , I never understood that life could offer anything other than the mundane existence of working for a living and putting enough food on the table . The Countach was awesome for those reasons , and it still is awesome for the same reasons . Italian flair and styling has a great way of motivating people to do well for themselves , to have a dream life . Lamborghini,s experience in tractor building took care of the robust V12 engine , what else is there to work on ? Style , out do the stylish Ferrari sports cars of that era . The Countach just dropped em dead in its tracks . Because of the financial cost of this exercise Lamborghini sold up , and the company has been through different ownerships ever since . But their ethos remains , their spirit in the cars remained . The change of ownership in 1998 was a turning point for the company , to make it a financially viable company changes had to be made , more volume of cars produced more models including a V10 . It's kept the company afloat for now , but it has lost its spirit . Back in the day when you drove a Lamborghini you simply had to buckle up and hold on , that thrill of the ride was what made Lamborghini special . Nowadays the cars are more safe ! More reliable ! Less rare ! Less crazy , more mainstream . Apart from the odd Sesto Elemento or Veneno that no one can afford . I feel the Aventador has got some of that old Italian flair and style back , but I have also heard the magic has gone , again the drive is too predictable , too safe , it doesn't get your heart pumping like doing 180mph in an insanely noisy Countach without power steering or ABS . Probably for the best some liberals would say ;-)

That was then. This is now.

You talk with rose tinted spectacles where people like Jay Kay sell his Diablo as the new aspiration in reality is a LaFerrari/P1/Pagani etc. You say that no-one can afford a Sesto Elemento or Veneno when in reality more people in the world today can afford to buy these two cars than could afford any Lamborghini in the 70s/80s!

Lamborghini's of old are just that - old. Unreliable. Uncomfortable. Awkward to live with. People who actually buy them nowadays care that they are reliable, that the electrics work, that they are relatively comfortable to live with and they certainly don't really compare them to the Countach or Diablo and why should they? If someone wants a scary, unreliable and uncomfortable Lamborghini they can simply buy an old one. If the fact that one can use and live with a Gallardo or Huracan as a daily driver means the loss of what you call spirit then personally I think it's the best thing to happen to them. Lamborghini would otherwise have been consigned to the history books decades ago.

Also, anyone driving any car at 180mph without their heart pumping is probably dead.

If a Countach never got your heart pumping pal then yes you are correct you are clinically dead and the only petrol going around in your head would be how much it costs to fill the tank up . Seriously mate , you need to ask yourself why classic cars are prized possessions and looked after and cherished , you need to visit a few classic car events see what beautiful art is on display , iconic cars from the 1930,s and upwards . If it's all about the latest fastest carbon fibre gadget then that's just fashion pal nothing else you might as well be driving a Tesla . Rose tinted glasses , yeah maybe you are right , but I'm older enough to look good wearing them and cool enough to put them on in the first place . If you haven't enjoyed your cars from the past you simply haven't lived and haven't driven the cars how they should be driven or understood how or why they should be driven in that manner . Maybe you need to check if your pulse is still there , I suspect you never had one in the first place but I reserve judgement on that as I don't like to make assumptions of people I haven't meet . Best you hop over to Bargain section as Supercars appear to be out of your genre . As for Venenos and Sestos mate there's only probably around 20 cars built , so I doubt very much they will eclipse sales of the Countach anytime soon do you , even if people could afford a couple of million quid on a car .

Old enough to look good wearing rose-tinted spectacles while conveniently sidestepping the fact that under Audi and Mr Winkelmann, Lamborghini exists and actually thrives today precisely because the cars are more reliable, relatively comfortable and liveable with than the cars of old - in other words, they cater to want their market want. If they didn't then the simply wouldn't sell and would not be in business any more. I'd much prefer the chance to aspire to own a Aventador SV than not have the choice at all. If you feel the need to chest-thump then I pity you.

No-one under the age of 30 really cares about owning new cars, much less old cars - it's a different era. You talk about the price of classic cars but it's funny how the very latest ones like the Laferrari, 918, P1, Paganis and Koenigseggs et al don't seem to lose value either so what's your point?

I couldn't care less about the Apple car but I do know that the winners are those who look forward and don't dwell in the past. Classic cars are analogue and todays world is definitely digital. I accept it, if you don't then that's up to you. It's 2016 now - time to step out of the 70s.

Yep , digital age , digital way of thinking I suppose . Oh well, I will have to resign myself to the fact Pistonheads will soon be renamed Digital Chip Heads or SimCard Brigade . Good luck with your forward thinking , me I'd rather have a lung full of black smoke and internal combustion engine to tinker with , I guess youngsters don't have the time nowadays they are too busy heading in the right direction , just throw the car away and buy the latest Beama and think they are moving forwards at a rapid rate of knots lol

Youngsters driving todays Lamborghini's are indeed moving forward at a rapid rate of knots (should they choose to) in a Winkelmann era car and not broken down on the side of the King's Road like Jay Kay was in his old Muira...

[Diablo SV]

I suppose gone are the days when people use to stop and help if you've broken down , nowadays they flip the finger take the piss and drive on by . Yep , a new era alright

Funny though , never experienced it myself however .

[Diablo SV]

Oh btw , I never brought up the issue regarding the price of classic cars , you did that . Have a read back back mate you might find out what a tool you have been .

[sidesauce]

Diablo SV said:

I suppose gone are the days when people use to stop and help if you've broken down

Yes. Because we don't trust the person trying to help us isn't a nutter. Sad, but that's how it is.

Go ahead and call me whatever you want, I really don't mind. I look at you the same way I look at dinosaurs - an irrelevance in today's world.

[leglessAlex]

Diablo SV said:

Yep, digital age, digital way of thinking I suppose. Oh well, I will have to resign myself to the fact Pistonheads will soon be renamed Digital Chip Heads or SimCard Brigade. Good luck with your forward thinking, me I'd rather have a lung full of black smoke and internal combustion engine to tinker with, I guess youngsters don't have the time nowadays they are too busy heading in the right direction, just throw the car away and buy the latest Beama and think they are moving forwards at a rapid rate of knots lol

Your posts are really hard to read.

More to the point, are you really saying that people who like a 700bhp, 217mph, Italian V12 supercar are somehow not petrolheads?Because that's what you make it sound like.

Oh, and I advise you drive the Adventador at some point if you get a chance, you may find it's not as sanitised and easy to drive as you seem to think it is.

[Diablo SV]

leglessAlex said:

Diablo SV said:

Yep, digital age, digital way of thinking I suppose. Oh well, I will have to resign myself to the fact Pistonheads will soon be renamed Digital Chip Heads or SimCard Brigade. Good luck with your forward thinking, me I'd rather have a lung full of black smoke and internal combustion engine to tinker with, I guess youngsters don't have the time nowadays they are too busy heading in the right direction, just throw the car away and buy the latest Beama and think they are moving forwards at a rapid rate of knots lol

Your posts are really hard to read.

More to the point, are you really saying that people who like a 700bhp, 217mph, Italian V12 supercar are somehow not petrolheads?Because that's what you make it sound like.

Oh, and I advise you drive the Adventador at some point if you get a chance, you may find it's not as sanitised and easy to drive as you seem to think it is.

Not saying that at all , the Aventador is a capable car you just need more driving ability to thrash a Countach . I suspect you know this already though .

[Diablo SV]

sidesauce said:

Diablo SV said:

I suppose gone are the days when people use to stop and help if you've broken down

Yes. Because we don't trust the person trying to help us isn't a nutter. Sad, but that's how it is.

Go ahead and call me whatever you want, I really don't mind. I look at you the same way I look at dinosaurs - an irrelevance in today's world.

Wont have any combustible engine if it wasn't for dinosaurs silly , as for the trust bit your sentence is a little confusing , you mean if I broke down you wouldn't help because you couldn't trust me , is that right ? I never was any good at riddles

[leglessAlex]

Diablo SV said:

Not saying that at all, the Aventador is a capable car you just need more driving ability to thrash a Countach. I suspect you know this already though .

Have you tried both cars? I haven't, and so I try not to make sweeping statements about how they drive. I have, however, heard from numerous sources that the Adventador is more than a bit of a beast, especially in SV form, and someone has to be a good driver that's on the top of their game to drive one on the limit.

[Diablo SV]

leglessAlex said:

Diablo SV said:

Not saying that at all, the Aventador is a capable car you just need more driving ability to thrash a Countach. I suspect you know this already though .

Have you tried both cars? I haven't, and so I try not to make sweeping statements about how they drive. I have, however, heard from numerous sources that the Adventador is more than a bit of a beast, especially in SV form, and someone has to be a good driver that's on the top of their game to drive one on the limit.

I tend not to make sweeping statements either , I read a lot , and I listen a lot . And I've been around a lot . My opinions are based on other people's experiences also , I tend not to listen to people too much who haven't had experience but know everything .

[leglessAlex]

Diablo SV said:

I tend not to make sweeping statements either, I read a lot, and I listen a lot. And I've been around a lot. My opinions are based on other people's experiences also, I tend not to listen to people too much who haven't had experience but know everything .

Nice little dig there, very subtle. Very PH.

[Diablo SV]

leglessAlex said:

Diablo SV said:

I tend not to make sweeping statements either, I read a lot, and I listen a lot. And I've been around a lot. My opinions are based on other people's experiences also, I tend not to listen to people too much who haven't had experience but know everything .

Nice little dig there, very subtle. Very PH.

Seems to be how some people like it . Must be the generation gap

[Daniel1]

sidesauce said:

oungsters driving todays Lamborghini's are indeed moving forward at a rapid rate of knots (should they choose to) in a Winkelmann era car and not broken down on the side of the King's Road like Jay Kay was in his old Muira...

the Muira is so beautiful

[ZesPak]

Daniel1 said:

sidesauce said:

oungsters driving todays Lamborghini's are indeed moving forward at a rapid rate of knots (should they choose to) in a Winkelmann era car and not broken down on the side of the King's Road like Jay Kay was in his old Muira...

the Muira is so beautiful

Jay Kay was probably one of the most memorable guests on Top Gear as well.
Great to see someone not only appreciate cars like that but also drives them.

This is one of my favourite top gear clips of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSj7GFLDhew

[jamespink]

k-ink said:

The Miura concept was the most stunningly beautiful Lambo that never was. All the modern examples are an origami collision of chaos. Let's hope the new boss will sign off some designs with elegance and grace.

Completely agree, that pic stopped me in my tracks... Fabulous!

[P5BNij]

ZesPak said:

Daniel1 said:

sidesauce said:

oungsters driving todays Lamborghini's are indeed moving forward at a rapid rate of knots (should they choose to) in a Winkelmann era car and not broken down on the side of the King's Road like Jay Kay was in his old Muira...

the Muira is so beautiful

Jay Kay was probably one of the most memorable guests on Top Gear as well.
Great to see someone not only appreciate cars like that but also drives them.

This is one of my favourite top gear clips of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSj7GFLDhew

JD Classics had it in one of their Essex showrooms a while back, can't remember what they were asking for it. Beautiful though, just beautiful.

[renrut]

That Muira still looks awesome sat at the side of the road.

Having had a look round the lambo 'museum' at the front of their factory, they had a collection of concept cars and production cars through the years. They've definitely become more normal looking since Audi and less beautiful, albeit beautiful body on a tractor chassis in the early cases.

My own personal opinion is that Lamborghini no longer makes what my mental image of a Lamborghini should be, except in the very limited production types. But I think it's also largely symptomatic of the 'supercar' industry, everything is more automated, more controlled, tamed, ultimately aiming for the removal of the human from the loop as that is the performance limiting factor, forgetting that is the sole reason any of it exists.

I'm not in the market for one though so I guess they can carry on; I just feel its a shame, like when someone knocks down a pretty little wood to build some houses. You can't put the trees back, people need places to live, that's progress etc etc.

[A10]

Aerodynamics and crash and impact regulations hamper designers nowadays.

At the end of the day, despite that, I don't there is much on the road that looks wilder than an Aventador.

[markcoznottz]

leglessAlex said:

Diablo SV said:

I tend not to make sweeping statements either, I read a lot, and I listen a lot. And I've been around a lot. My opinions are based on other people's experiences also, I tend not to listen to people too much who haven't had experience but know everything .

Nice little dig there, very subtle. Very PH.

There was no dig he as a lambo owner was putting you in your place, it's fair to say that most lambo owners will be well acquainted with other owners of both old and new models. The bottom line is that all these newer cars, aventador, huaracan, Ferrari 458 to a lesser degree are painfully boring to drive, once you look beyond the 'event'. The original Gallardo started it, in fact the phrase 'drives like a big Audi TT ' was coined for the Gallardo and still rings true for a lot of modern stuff. The fact that journalists still bang on about the ford puma, and the Peugeot 205 proves that beyond the speed aspect, there is much more to it.