Expensive vs cheap oil
Discussion
lostkiwi said:
As long as the oil I use passes meets the relevant manufacturers spec I'm not bothered what brand it is.
Much of the noise about oil is marketing and not really relevant on a regularly maintained vehicle.
This makes a lot of sense.Much of the noise about oil is marketing and not really relevant on a regularly maintained vehicle.
However. Years ago a mate worked as a mechanic at the Rover dealers and thought it was a bit of a joke when one man used to bring in his 5 litres of Mobil 1 and asked that they use that in his Rover 620, the mechanics thought that it was a waste of time/money.
At 80,000 the head gasket went on the car, when it was taken apart the bores and cam lobes looked like they were like new.
EazyDuz said:
I dont understand, why do people fork out extra for Castrol, Shell, Comma etc.
Wilko's own brand or Asda's own brand will be just as good, minus a few cleaning agents the competition might give.
It all must come from the same refinery, unless ASDA has its very own oil refinery for its oil. The expensive brands just add things to it, but your basic bog standard 10w40 will be exactly the same raw oil as any other brand.
Why pay more?
Like all beer or wine is the same? Its just grapes or hops isn't it? Petrol and Diesel are pretty much the same basic product and your car will probably run on either....for a bit.Wilko's own brand or Asda's own brand will be just as good, minus a few cleaning agents the competition might give.
It all must come from the same refinery, unless ASDA has its very own oil refinery for its oil. The expensive brands just add things to it, but your basic bog standard 10w40 will be exactly the same raw oil as any other brand.
Why pay more?
If you don't care then fine, but if you don't understand that "just adding things" might make a difference then that's your problem.
Can you say why? I'm just curious as I had a car that went through 3 turbos in 5 years. Up until i replaced the final turbo it had been run on Mobil 1. Not saying there a connection as i have no proof or idea but switched to Shell Helix after that with no problems.
heebeegeetee said:
I tell customers to buy a brand ([b]I don't advise buying Mobil 1 though;[b/] ) I tell customers to avoid supermarket oils. Until I see evidence that I'm wrong that's what I'll continue to do.
Spanglepants said:
Can you say why? I'm just curious as I had a car that went through 3 turbos in 5 years. Up until i replaced the final turbo it had been run on Mobil 1. Not saying there a connection as i have no proof or idea but switched to Shell Helix after that with no problems.
How often did you change the oil? Did you read on forums after the first turbo went if its a common issue with that car?heebeegeetee said:
I tell customers to buy a brand ([b]I don't advise buying Mobil 1 though;[b/] ) I tell customers to avoid supermarket oils. Until I see evidence that I'm wrong that's what I'll continue to do.
I often get asked why one oil costs a lot more than others, so did the post below for a forum a while ago.
Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
Another "Big brands overcharging consumers for the same stuff as cheap s
t" conspiracy shocker. Chinese ditch finders being as good as premium brands the other week, and now oil. What next? £4.99 brake pads from ebay are as good as Ferodo Baggins brake pads?
What have you bought your bird for Valentines this year then OP? Tesco finest roses, or some weeds you picked from your garden? Just plants after all, aren't they?
I suggest you look on YouTube for engines running without any oil at all. They can keep running for quite a while before seizing up. Why not save even more money by not using any in your engine, then you needn't concern yourself about oil quality differences.
t" conspiracy shocker. Chinese ditch finders being as good as premium brands the other week, and now oil. What next? £4.99 brake pads from ebay are as good as Ferodo Baggins brake pads?What have you bought your bird for Valentines this year then OP? Tesco finest roses, or some weeds you picked from your garden? Just plants after all, aren't they?
I suggest you look on YouTube for engines running without any oil at all. They can keep running for quite a while before seizing up. Why not save even more money by not using any in your engine, then you needn't concern yourself about oil quality differences.
opieoilman said:
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
Is it true VW approved oil has a trace marker chemical in it?opieoilman said:
I often get asked why one oil costs a lot more than others, so did the post below for a forum a while ago.
Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
But is that of any importance? I think that is the relevant question to be honest. Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
If you look at the lifecycle of the modern car is there really any need for premium oils or many of the related products which are argued to extend the longevity of the car when the reality is that the consumers themselves are shortening the cars' lifespan more and more?
Is the product going in the bin long before the benefits of premium oil can bear any fruit?
In reality the question is whether it makes sense for example for someone with 1 year to live to take out a lifetime membership or an annual one?
DonkeyApple said:
opieoilman said:
I often get asked why one oil costs a lot more than others, so did the post below for a forum a while ago.
Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
But is that of any importance? I think that is the relevant question to be honest. Oils can vary a lot, even though they say similar things on the label.
For example, there are different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing. This link is to another article on our site, which explains more about the oil basestocks.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Bases...
As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price.
Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package. Here is another PDF on our site that explains what the additive package does in the oil.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/Oil-A...
The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.
Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).
Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, certain branded oils can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.
Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.
As you can see from the information above, you can have two oils, which appear alike when you look at the basics on the label, but it could be that one is suitable for endurance racing and the other is barely fit for a lawnmower.
Cheers
Tim
If you look at the lifecycle of the modern car is there really any need for premium oils or many of the related products which are argued to extend the longevity of the car when the reality is that the consumers themselves are shortening the cars' lifespan more and more?
But it's the consumers who are driving all this 'long life' oil isn't it? They want longer service intervals. The oil industry had to react accordingly. I'm pretty sure a typical VAG 2.0 TFSI engine run on cheap mineral oil, changed every 20K miles, wouldn't last as long as one run on the oil VW specified.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Yes, it is. As stated further back, some VW engines need a specific blend to prevent camshaft wear. There are probably other engines out there with similar requirements.
But it's the consumers who are driving all this 'long life' oil isn't it? They want longer service intervals. The oil industry had to react accordingly. I'm pretty sure a typical VAG 2.0 TFSI engine run on cheap mineral oil, changed every 20K miles, wouldn't last as long as one run on the oil VW specified.
Yes but I don't think that is in dispute. The question is whether it matters if the engine doesn't last as long as the car will have been scrapped long before?But it's the consumers who are driving all this 'long life' oil isn't it? They want longer service intervals. The oil industry had to react accordingly. I'm pretty sure a typical VAG 2.0 TFSI engine run on cheap mineral oil, changed every 20K miles, wouldn't last as long as one run on the oil VW specified.
What we have had so far is some anecdotal tales, some theories and guesses and some marketing text from companies who's job it is to sell premium oils.
I think this thread could be genuinely beneficial if there were any actual facts out there to support claims that cheap oils will not allow the engine to last the useable lifetime of the vehicle.
Besides, if consumers are pushing for anything it is lower prices and the job of the manufacturers is to give them what looks like a better deal while still keeping revenues and margins growing. And that suggests that enforcing the use of expensive oils may be driven by other factors?
I use expensive oils in my cars and change the oil more regularly than any manufacturer would state. But I keep my cars for years. I very much suspect that in the average consumption of a normal utility transport box the quality of oil used is pretty much irrelevant because the car is going to be binned long before less efficient oil leads to the end of the engine?
DonkeyApple said:
I think this thread could be genuinely beneficial if there were any actual facts out there to support claims that cheap oils will not allow the engine to last the useable lifetime of the vehicle.
Has a car ever failed due to a poor quality oil? I've never heard of it. Has a car failed due to lack of servicing? Sure. Skimp on oil change intervals and pay the price.
The arguement that garages need to protect themselves so they only provide good quality oil. Well ASDA, Halfords etc have to maintain a reputation too. Dont think Halfords would take kindly to a Watchdog episode of customers complaining that their own brand oil seized their engine.
Has yet to happen though
There seem to be a number of posts referring to engines failing or not failing. Surely wear on the engine is not quite so Boolean and would be a gradual sliding scale over time - for example the seal given by the piston rings; you can measure compression dropping gradually over the life of a car; would the compression drop more gradually with a better oil? That's just one example - of course the oil lubricates lots of different things all over the engine and each one will have a wear profile over the life of the car?
- if* engine oil were to cause premature engine oil it would take years and many miles, so by the time your big end is knocking it might be hard to objectively state the root cause.
I use ester oils in my track car though. And for the keepers too. The cost isn't that great anymore.
EazyDuz said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think this thread could be genuinely beneficial if there were any actual facts out there to support claims that cheap oils will not allow the engine to last the useable lifetime of the vehicle.
Has a car ever failed due to a poor quality oil? I've never heard of it. Has a car failed due to lack of servicing? Sure. Skimp on oil change intervals and pay the price.
The arguement that garages need to protect themselves so they only provide good quality oil. Well ASDA, Halfords etc have to maintain a reputation too. Dont think Halfords would take kindly to a Watchdog episode of customers complaining that their own brand oil seized their engine.
Has yet to happen though
If I'm driving an old snorter about though, I'll go with whatever oil the supermarket has on offer, as if the engine blows I would buy another car, as opposed to spending out on an engine rebuild.
EazyDuz said:
What a massive bellend. You must work for Shell
You haven't exactly been a polite nice person in this thread, and now you're resorting to direct personal insults for no reason at all. PH does not need people like you on the forums, please go away. We do not want you here.EazyDuz said:
Has a car ever failed due to a poor quality oil?
Yes, all the time, we're seeing this every day of our working lives in our small business.Now, how has the oil come to be of low quality? Was it of low quality to begin with or has it been in the engine too long? That's the bit we have difficulty finding out because I don't want to interrogate customers or say anything that makes them appear to be unwise.
My answer to my two questions is that I suspect both, it was low quality to start with and its been in the engine too long. As I said, we see a distinct difference in the condition of cars between those who care about their cars and those who don't. I suspect that difference is reflected throughout the car, including in the engine.
Interestingly, the oils you condemn in your OP are the ones I specifically advise my customers to buy and I specifically advise them to avoid supermarket oils and I'll continue to do so. As I said, if you work the extra cost out to a percentage of your annual running costs, you'll come to a single figure very close to zero, so it's just a no-brainer for me.
Forte products: You asked about Forte products in another thread. I have no opinion on that but let me tell you of our experience when the Forte sales man came to see us. He brings a device which IIRC is essentially a small machined steel drum which spins in a small bath/container. Powered by electric motor. It then has a lever which you use to press a machined steel dowel onto the drum (I'll see if I can find pics). The idea is that dowel and drum rotate together and pressure is applied to the dowel via the lever.
When the little bath is filled with Forte engine flush and dowel is levered onto spinning drum you cannot stop the dowel rotating. Replace forte with any other engine flush and the the dowel seizes and a flat is quickly worn. Quite impressive.
Then we did the same with the oil we were supplying at the time (Fuchs). The lubrication was such that the dowel continues to turn, but when we replaced the Fuchs with super market oil of *exactly* the same spec - it seized. I saw it with my own eyes.
An unscientific test but better than nothing at all I'd suggest.
In response to previous comments it may well be the case that the owners paying a bit more for good oil earlier in the cars life are not the one who will reap the benefits - but I still am never going to put cheap oil in an engine, it would offend me to do so tbh.
Modern oil is a proper, proper technological product imo. It is made to do a job.
shopping channel also does that bearing test with zx1 which everyone will tell you is snake oil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY5J0wrAMuY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY5J0wrAMuY
Edited by steveo3002 on Thursday 11th February 11:05
My logic on my cars is that I'll opt for the oil recommended by the manufacturer. I love my cars and don't mind paying a little over the price of Tesco Value to maintain things I've paid thousands for.
What's a £20-30 saving on a car that's cost me a considerable amount more? Peace of mind that I'm using something good is worth that cost.
That said for my Saab, which has nearly 140k and cost me 1200quid I'd gladly use Halfords or supermarket oil. As long as the oil is changed regularly I'm happy to save a bit of cash here and there running a cheap, old car on the cheap. Mainly because it doesn't owe me too much.
What's a £20-30 saving on a car that's cost me a considerable amount more? Peace of mind that I'm using something good is worth that cost.
That said for my Saab, which has nearly 140k and cost me 1200quid I'd gladly use Halfords or supermarket oil. As long as the oil is changed regularly I'm happy to save a bit of cash here and there running a cheap, old car on the cheap. Mainly because it doesn't owe me too much.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff