RE: BMW M2: Review
Discussion
Motormatt said:
Just a thought, perhaps BMW concluded that there might be customers out there capable of changing gear themselves without the need for rev matching assistance, and that these people might also have sufficient control over their right foot as to negate the need for ESC.
I like rev matching and my control over my right foot is good enough that I've lived without ESP or even traction control or ABS for the last ten years and not crashed... but I can see no reason to ever switch a decent ESP system off on the road. 
gigglebug said:
NDNDNDND said:
BMW has chosen to leave rev-matching on unless you fully disengage the car's electronic stability control.
I've not knowingly driven a car that rev matches. What happens if you try to match the revs yourself whilst the system is engaged? Surely if you've matched the revs yourself with the throttle there is no need for the system to do anything?MDMetal said:
gigglebug said:
NDNDNDND said:
BMW has chosen to leave rev-matching on unless you fully disengage the car's electronic stability control.
I've not knowingly driven a car that rev matches. What happens if you try to match the revs yourself whilst the system is engaged? Surely if you've matched the revs yourself with the throttle there is no need for the system to do anything?gigglebug said:
Ah I see, thanks. Electronic throttles. Was obvious when you explained it. Turns out a colleagues Mini does it, on down shifts only though so I'm going to have a go in while.
It feels like the throttle equivalent of those semi-automatic gearboxes which, even in "manual mode", change up automatically when you hit the red-line but sometimes refuse to change up when you pull the paddle. I've only scanned through quickly, but is the cost of the thing not a concern for anyone? £45k as standard? That's crazy money! The A45 and RS3 were taking the p!ss at £40k..
Pick out a list of 12 month old cars for the same kind of price and you're going to get something far nicer than a 2 series no matter how good the drivetrain? You can get a dealer supplied 2014 M5 for £48k, or a 2007 911 Turbo, or a 2011 911.
This should be in below £40k. Mind you, brokers are showing £5k off a 235i so maybe that's the plan.
Pick out a list of 12 month old cars for the same kind of price and you're going to get something far nicer than a 2 series no matter how good the drivetrain? You can get a dealer supplied 2014 M5 for £48k, or a 2007 911 Turbo, or a 2011 911.
This should be in below £40k. Mind you, brokers are showing £5k off a 235i so maybe that's the plan.
For all the superlatives in the write up, the part which makes me smile the most is "there will be as many M2s built as customers want". This is the way that performance cars should be - not rationed to preferred customers only, as the likes of Porsche, Ferrari et al seem to do with all of their most interesting cars these days.
MrTurner said:
I've only scanned through quickly, but is the cost of the thing not a concern for anyone? £45k as standard? That's crazy money! The A45 and RS3 were taking the p!ss at £40k..
Pick out a list of 12 month old cars for the same kind of price and you're going to get something far nicer than a 2 series no matter how good the drivetrain? You can get a dealer supplied 2014 M5 for £48k, or a 2007 911 Turbo, or a 2011 911.
This should be in below £40k. Mind you, brokers are showing £5k off a 235i so maybe that's the plan.
In it's favour, it does come highly spec'd as standard, which is strange for a BMW. I only had to add a couple of things when I ordered mine, everything else was there.Pick out a list of 12 month old cars for the same kind of price and you're going to get something far nicer than a 2 series no matter how good the drivetrain? You can get a dealer supplied 2014 M5 for £48k, or a 2007 911 Turbo, or a 2011 911.
This should be in below £40k. Mind you, brokers are showing £5k off a 235i so maybe that's the plan.
The appeal for this is if you are in the market for a new car (which I was). You can play the second hand game all day long but that 997 will cost you a fortune in runnings costs, the M5 is well, an M5 and I don't need one of those. Porsche still wanted £60k for the 2011 997 GTS I looked at recently, and they had to spend over £4k getting it ready for sale (which scarred me).
There is a big waiting list for the M2 as production number are limited for each year so discounts are not available. But it is a brand new, lairy 2 door with a great engine, 3 year warranty and potential to tune to a very high level if you so desire. You could tune a 235i, 135i etc, but it will not be an M2.
This ticks all of my boxes so now the 13 month wait begins.
Edited by giger on Thursday 18th February 16:51
NDNDNDND said:
Interestingly, the M2 'manual' rev-matches on both downshifts and UPshifts...
Just read this on road & track:
"When you turn off automatic rev matching on the manual M2, you lose electronic stability control. If you order an M2 and have a brain, you want the standard manual transmission. If you cannot drive a stick smoothly and refuse to learn a new skill, the M2 will automatically rev-match shifts for you. It automatically blips the throttle or adjusts engine speed for smooth operation on both upshifts and downshifts.
"This isn't a system per se, more a software function made possible by the advent of electronic throttles. Nor is it new; a similar function was first sold in America on the Nissan 370Z. Most carmakers who sell this kind of thing let you disengage it independent of a car's other systems. BMW has chosen to leave rev-matching on unless you fully disengage the car's electronic stability control.
"Which means that, if you like manual transmissions because they're entertaining, and if you find them entertaining in part because they represent a developed skill, well, you don't get to exercise that skill unless you drive around all the time without an electronic safety net mandated on all new cars by the government and specifically designed to keep you from backing the car into a ditch. A system that is currently so well-developed and permissive that most road drivers are better off with it on—enthusiasts included.
"A few journalists were moaning that the feature was a quiet attempt to undermine the manual transmission in the American market. Americans have a history of ordering their BMW performance cars with manuals despite the availability of competent automatics and despite the chagrin of the engineers designing the cars. (In Germany, where performance metrics reign, manuals are seen as anachronism. Recall the E60-chassis M5, a model that initially wasn't going to be offered with a clutch pedal. Enthusiasts griped, and at the last minute, a six-speed manual was developed and certified for our market. A fact that still sets the Bavarians to grumbling.) The whole thing, they say, is a scam to fade the skill base and, in the long run, kill the technology.
"The hyperbolic Internet headline for this is BMW WANTS TO KILL THE MANUAL TRANSMISSION—OR YOU. (Wait a few weeks after this story runs and Google those words. Someone will hit on them. All it takes is time.) That's gibberish, of course. But this is stupid, and a software update away from being right. Someone should fix it."
Couldn't put it better myself.
Anyone know if this thing fakes its engine sound too? No mention in the article, but it was a touch sycophantic...
It does sound like an awesome car - albeit one undermined by some corporate/marketing stupidity.
M4 does rev-matching on upshifts too. However it is turned off when using Sport+ throttle response.Just read this on road & track:
"When you turn off automatic rev matching on the manual M2, you lose electronic stability control. If you order an M2 and have a brain, you want the standard manual transmission. If you cannot drive a stick smoothly and refuse to learn a new skill, the M2 will automatically rev-match shifts for you. It automatically blips the throttle or adjusts engine speed for smooth operation on both upshifts and downshifts.
"This isn't a system per se, more a software function made possible by the advent of electronic throttles. Nor is it new; a similar function was first sold in America on the Nissan 370Z. Most carmakers who sell this kind of thing let you disengage it independent of a car's other systems. BMW has chosen to leave rev-matching on unless you fully disengage the car's electronic stability control.
"Which means that, if you like manual transmissions because they're entertaining, and if you find them entertaining in part because they represent a developed skill, well, you don't get to exercise that skill unless you drive around all the time without an electronic safety net mandated on all new cars by the government and specifically designed to keep you from backing the car into a ditch. A system that is currently so well-developed and permissive that most road drivers are better off with it on—enthusiasts included.
"A few journalists were moaning that the feature was a quiet attempt to undermine the manual transmission in the American market. Americans have a history of ordering their BMW performance cars with manuals despite the availability of competent automatics and despite the chagrin of the engineers designing the cars. (In Germany, where performance metrics reign, manuals are seen as anachronism. Recall the E60-chassis M5, a model that initially wasn't going to be offered with a clutch pedal. Enthusiasts griped, and at the last minute, a six-speed manual was developed and certified for our market. A fact that still sets the Bavarians to grumbling.) The whole thing, they say, is a scam to fade the skill base and, in the long run, kill the technology.
"The hyperbolic Internet headline for this is BMW WANTS TO KILL THE MANUAL TRANSMISSION—OR YOU. (Wait a few weeks after this story runs and Google those words. Someone will hit on them. All it takes is time.) That's gibberish, of course. But this is stupid, and a software update away from being right. Someone should fix it."
Couldn't put it better myself.
Anyone know if this thing fakes its engine sound too? No mention in the article, but it was a touch sycophantic...
It does sound like an awesome car - albeit one undermined by some corporate/marketing stupidity.
The M2 does have active sound.
kmack said:
I wonder what the residuals will be like?
Initially pretty solid if there's a pre-order list of significant length (which I suspect there will be given how positive the reviews have been). In the long run once supply starts to outstrip demand, I'd guess it'll be similar to the M3/M4? I think the residuals will be strong for a long time. My local dealer is now quoting a 2 year lead time for anyone who hasn't ordered yet. Whilst this isn't a ltd ed model, the annual production is limited. I ordered mine yesterday and I have a 13 month wait.
I reckon it will be many years before supply outstrips demand.
PCP will be available but the dealers aren't quoting any finance figures just yet (as the car is not actually available yet).
I reckon it will be many years before supply outstrips demand.
PCP will be available but the dealers aren't quoting any finance figures just yet (as the car is not actually available yet).
I think it looks a great package and the price is about right.
My stepfather has been quoted a May delivery date but he ordered in November. I'm hoping he gets a low-ball part-ex offer for his 235i so I can buy that from him as he's agreed to take the same price from me as the dealer offers.
My stepfather has been quoted a May delivery date but he ordered in November. I'm hoping he gets a low-ball part-ex offer for his 235i so I can buy that from him as he's agreed to take the same price from me as the dealer offers.
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