RE: Jaguar F-Type R AWD: Review
Discussion
unsprung said:
xRIEx said:
The USA is a more difficult market for European marques given their manufacturing infrastructure and "All-American Patriotism" for their own brands
I may not fully understand your argument, but, at a glance, I would have to disagree. Ford and General Motors sell something like 5 million units in a total market of 17 million light vehicles. Is that patriotism?
Travel to California -- the bellwether of US motoring -- and see if you can count 100 new US brand cars on the highway. Take plenty of food and water; you'll be there for a while!
Who were Lexus, Infiniti and Acura created for? It wasn't the Europeans who demanded more head room from the Japanese OEMs.
And now Hyundai and Kia are entering the luxury and luxury-performance segments. Again, this is all driven by the desires of US car buyers.
US OEMs have paid an enormous price for their incompetence and hubris. They may have managed to avoid the endgame visited upon the likes of British Leyland, but the damage has been staggering. And it has changed the US buyer seemingly forever.
Which European brands sell in America? BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. VW of course (but probably not much longer). VW not particularly a posh brand, but above Ford/Vauxhall/Fiat/Renault/etc over here.
How many cars do Renault sell in the USA? From what I googled, nada; they sell in Central and South America, but not USA.
Peugeot Citroen? Also none according to the first two pages after googling "Citroen US sales figures" and "Peugeot US sales figures" (rather, I couldn't find any figures).
Fiat? They'll probably all be Chrysler (which you didn't mention in your "5m units from 17.5m total market" - add 2.2m). Actually I tell a lie, 40,000 Fiat 500s and a handful of Alfa 4Cs were sold.
Vauxhall/Opel? Mostly, if not all, cars will be sold under GM brands.
Yanks do not buy European for run of the mill cars; they buy European for a bit of style.
Regarding the Japanese brands you mentioned:
I am well aware that the Toyota Camry is one of (if not the) best selling cars in the US. Oddly enough, there are two factories within the US that build the Camry (Japan only has one). That factory also builds cars designed in and aimed at (in some cases solely) the US, including Lexus.
Acura was originally just a brand for North America and then expanded:
"Acura (アキュラ Akyura?) is the luxury vehicle division of Japanese automaker Honda.[1] The brand was launched in the United States and Canada in March 1986, marketing luxury, performance, and high-performance vehicles. It was introduced to Hong Kong in 1991, Mexico in 2004, China in 2006, Russia in 2014 and Kuwait in 2015. Honda's plan to introduce Acura to the Japanese domestic market (JDM) in 2008 was delayed, due to economic reasons,[2] and later withheld as a result of the 2008 financial crisis.[3]"
Infiniti was similar (and have some production facilities in the US):
"Infiniti (インフィニティ Infiniti?, IPA: [inɸinʲiti]) is the luxury vehicle division of Japanese automaker Nissan. Infiniti officially started selling vehicles on November 8, 1989 in North America. ...
The Infiniti marque was formally introduced to its homeland of Japan in 2013,"
Both marques initially aimed solely at USA.
Factories in USA:
BMW: 1 (SUVs only)
Mercedes: 1 (SUVs only)
Porsche: 0
Audi: 0
Lamborghini: 0
Ferrari: 0
Jaguar: 0
Aston Martin: 0
Importing these cars into the US costs money, therefore European cars are mostly (apart from the above SUVs) going to be more expensive (and are in many cases already expensive), and for similar paper performance (if not always style and luxury) American cars are going to provide more comparative bang for the buck.
American brands still account for 41% of the market according to your figures (plus the Chrysler numbers you didn't include), which if that is paying an enormous price, let's add up sales of UK car brands in the UK and see who is the most patriotic in terms of brand loyalty.
unsprung said:
Having seen how very much the F-Type is indeed selling into a niche segment... What can we say about this and about the AWD offering of the F-Type?
Yeah, the world revolves around the USA. It's not like Jaguar sell any cars in the UK, the rest of Europe or, say, China. If it doesn't sell in massive numbers in the USA, what's the point, right? 
xRIEx said:
unsprung said:
Having seen how very much the F-Type is indeed selling into a niche segment... What can we say about this and about the AWD offering of the F-Type?
Yeah, the world revolves around the USA. It's not like Jaguar sell any cars in the UK, the rest of Europe or, say, China. If it doesn't sell in massive numbers in the USA, what's the point, right? On this particular thread, I've begun by mentioning the US because a) I didn't see it mentioned earlier and b) the US is an essential market for the future of Jaguar and of JLR as a whole. As is China, by the way (but we all know that).
By mentioning the US here, I do not overlook the UK. Indeed, success in America requires the brand to transport those best-of-British values inherent in Jaguar to the US market. This could be a tricky task, because the Jaguar brand brings with it not only many good things, but also some not-so-fun-to-remember things from the recent past. Thus, the F-PACE is an important part of the brand narrative, going forward.
Once again, apologies for any Yank-itude, but none has been intended. Some days, I'd just as soon pop across for a pint with a number of the PH'ers on these threads. (I've done so with members of another UK forum, but that's another story).
unsprung said:
xRIEx said:
unsprung said:
Having seen how very much the F-Type is indeed selling into a niche segment... What can we say about this and about the AWD offering of the F-Type?
Yeah, the world revolves around the USA. It's not like Jaguar sell any cars in the UK, the rest of Europe or, say, China. If it doesn't sell in massive numbers in the USA, what's the point, right? On this particular thread, I've begun by mentioning the US because a) I didn't see it mentioned earlier and b) the US is an essential market for the future of Jaguar and of JLR as a whole. As is China, by the way (but we all know that).
By mentioning the US here, I do not overlook the UK. Indeed, success in America requires the brand to transport those best-of-British values inherent in Jaguar to the US market. This could be a tricky task, because the Jaguar brand brings with it not only many good things, but also some not-so-fun-to-remember things from the recent past. Thus, the F-PACE is an important part of the brand narrative, going forward.
Once again, apologies for any Yank-itude, but none has been intended. Some days, I'd just as soon pop across for a pint with a number of the PH'ers on these threads. (I've done so with members of another UK forum, but that's another story).
I do think the US is a difficult market for European cars to crack (like you say, it's not inconsiderable), and one reason why I went looking for some factory data - building in the US cuts down transport costs, supports the economy (and probably tax breaks associated with that) rather than importing. The Nissan Qashqai is massive in the UK and built in Sunderland; I doubt it would compete so well if it was built in Japan.
The Japanese brands interested me as well - reading up on how they were created suggests to me that the Japanese manufacturers really focussed on America as its own market and I suspect that is the key. Europeans try to sell on their European reputation (which is what suggested the prestige brands to me) - VW being the only 'everyday' brand as far as I'm aware that's made any headway (until 6 months ago). As you said, "Best of British" - I think that will remain niche for Americans. I reckon a uniquely American brand and a US-based production would see a major difference (that sounds rather obviously when I type it out, but I know what I mean
).That other forum, it wasn't a bike forum was it?
Beefmeister said:
DibblyDobbler said:
Wonder if you can have an AWD + V8 + manual... that would do me
No Manual on the V8 sadly. In fact, no manual with AWD either. So you can have a RWD manual V6 or V6S, or an AWD auto V6, V6S and V8R
I seem to be odd as AWD + manual is what I want and it's pretty rare (hot hatches aside).
kambites said:
DibblyDobbler said:
Thanks
I seem to be odd as AWD + manual is what I want and it's pretty rare (hot hatches aside).
You can still get it in a 911 can't you? I seem to be odd as AWD + manual is what I want and it's pretty rare (hot hatches aside).
Beefmeister said:
Having done hundreds of miles in both V6S and V8R models, I can see the appeal of the V6 but anyone (including journos) who say the V6 is a better car than the V8 are talking out of their buttocks.
The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
V8 is funny, but it's a one trick pony. As a car to actually enjoy driving fast, the V6S is the better of the two because you can actually commit to a corner as opposed to hanging on for dear life! Don't get me wrong, there's a certain amount of fun to be had trying to get a good lap out of a V8 but on the road, and for any extended time on track, the V6S is by far and away the sweeter handling car. The V8 could be a lot closer in character to the V6 and probably a lot faster for it, but that would make the range very one dimensional. I agree with the motoring journos. The V6S is the better car overall, but whether that appeals to the buying public is a different matter. The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
xRIEx said:
Factories in USA:
BMW: 1 (SUVs only)
Mercedes: 1 (SUVs only)
Porsche: 0
Audi: 0
Lamborghini: 0
Ferrari: 0
Jaguar: 0
Aston Martin: 0
Importing these cars into the US costs money, therefore European cars are mostly (apart from the above SUVs) going to be more expensive (and are in many cases already expensive), and for similar paper performance (if not always style and luxury) American cars are going to provide more comparative bang for the buck.
American brands still account for 41% of the market according to your figures (plus the Chrysler numbers you didn't include), which if that is paying an enormous price, let's add up sales of UK car brands in the UK and see who is the most patriotic in terms of brand loyalty.
Mercedes-Benz also manufacture the C Class here and that is their best selling vehicle.BMW: 1 (SUVs only)
Mercedes: 1 (SUVs only)
Porsche: 0
Audi: 0
Lamborghini: 0
Ferrari: 0
Jaguar: 0
Aston Martin: 0
Importing these cars into the US costs money, therefore European cars are mostly (apart from the above SUVs) going to be more expensive (and are in many cases already expensive), and for similar paper performance (if not always style and luxury) American cars are going to provide more comparative bang for the buck.
American brands still account for 41% of the market according to your figures (plus the Chrysler numbers you didn't include), which if that is paying an enormous price, let's add up sales of UK car brands in the UK and see who is the most patriotic in terms of brand loyalty.
JLR looked at opening a plant in South Carolina but that was put on ice. They do have a new plant in Italiaia, Brazil and I believe that plant is now online.
RacerMike said:
Beefmeister said:
Having done hundreds of miles in both V6S and V8R models, I can see the appeal of the V6 but anyone (including journos) who say the V6 is a better car than the V8 are talking out of their buttocks.
The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
V8 is funny, but it's a one trick pony. As a car to actually enjoy driving fast, the V6S is the better of the two because you can actually commit to a corner as opposed to hanging on for dear life! Don't get me wrong, there's a certain amount of fun to be had trying to get a good lap out of a V8 but on the road, and for any extended time on track, the V6S is by far and away the sweeter handling car. The V8 could be a lot closer in character to the V6 and probably a lot faster for it, but that would make the range very one dimensional. I agree with the motoring journos. The V6S is the better car overall, but whether that appeals to the buying public is a different matter. The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
Ultimately you end up feeling like a spare part. At least with the RWD car you can mess about by prodding the back end out with the loud pedal. The AWD just removes that too.
It will appeal to some buy personally I can't see the point.
The V6S is a lovely, sweet car.
I just handed back a 65 plate XE courtesy car with the latest electric steering and was fortunate enough to drive it back to back with the BMW X3 courtesy car also with electric steering. Whilst I have to bear in mind the XFR-S has hydraulic steering, and the best I have ever come across in a modern saloon car at that - I was delighted to find that Jaguar's electric steering is really, really good. Infact it utterly eclipses BMW's abomination.
I'm sure nobody will believe that "because BMW innit", but the BMW system really is s
t compared to what Jag have produced.jamieduff1981 said:
I'm sure nobody will believe that "because BMW innit", but the BMW system really is st compared to what Jag have produced.
I have one BMW with hydraulic steering and one with electric and I agree the electric system is st compared to what Jag have produced.t, it's good to hear that other manufacturers are getting it right though because I have lost faith with the modern way of doing it after BMW's poor effort. jamieduff1981 said:
RacerMike said:
Beefmeister said:
Having done hundreds of miles in both V6S and V8R models, I can see the appeal of the V6 but anyone (including journos) who say the V6 is a better car than the V8 are talking out of their buttocks.
The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
V8 is funny, but it's a one trick pony. As a car to actually enjoy driving fast, the V6S is the better of the two because you can actually commit to a corner as opposed to hanging on for dear life! Don't get me wrong, there's a certain amount of fun to be had trying to get a good lap out of a V8 but on the road, and for any extended time on track, the V6S is by far and away the sweeter handling car. The V8 could be a lot closer in character to the V6 and probably a lot faster for it, but that would make the range very one dimensional. I agree with the motoring journos. The V6S is the better car overall, but whether that appeals to the buying public is a different matter. The V8 is one of the most hilariously fun cars I've ever driven, they make me giggle with every journey.
Looking forward to trying the V8R AWD too, have a coupe coming in a couple of weeks.
Ultimately you end up feeling like a spare part. At least with the RWD car you can mess about by prodding the back end out with the loud pedal. The AWD just removes that too.
It will appeal to some buy personally I can't see the point.
The V6S is a lovely, sweet car.
I just handed back a 65 plate XE courtesy car with the latest electric steering and was fortunate enough to drive it back to back with the BMW X3 courtesy car also with electric steering. Whilst I have to bear in mind the XFR-S has hydraulic steering, and the best I have ever come across in a modern saloon car at that - I was delighted to find that Jaguar's electric steering is really, really good. Infact it utterly eclipses BMW's abomination.
I'm sure nobody will believe that "because BMW innit", but the BMW system really is s
t compared to what Jag have produced.
The XE-S is a truly fantastic car though, same engine works much better in the saloon IMO. And the ride on the 20's is better than any BMW i've ever driven on 18's.
Beefmeister said:
We'll have to agree to disagree
The XE-S is a truly fantastic car though, same engine works much better in the saloon IMO. And the ride on the 20's is better than any BMW i've ever driven on 18's.
Which is exactly why the V8 sells I think. A 911 Carerra S vs a Turbo is basically the same car with more or less power (simplifying I know....but the two are both immensely competent and feel similar). The main reason people buy the Turbo is because it's 'faster' or 'why wouldn't you', whereas with the F-Type, the two cars genuinely appeal to two different customers. A good thing IMHO.The XE-S is a truly fantastic car though, same engine works much better in the saloon IMO. And the ride on the 20's is better than any BMW i've ever driven on 18's.
unsprung said:
oldtimer2 said:
unsprung said:
In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car. Still, an uncommonly beautiful car.
Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.
F-Type
4,629
Corvette Coupe
20,757
...
Your comparison would be more useful if it was between products in broadly the same price bracket. It seems to me that $100,000 Jaguar, or Porsche or AMG, products are not aimed at the same customers as a $30,000 Mustang or Corvette. Judging by YouTube reviews of the F-type it looks as though Jaguar has succeeded in Ian Callum's aim of "putting a smile" on the face of its drivers. And the even more expensive SVR version is still to come. It looks as though Jaguar intends the F-type to be its halo product, referring to the use of the F-type's V6 in a succession of new product introductions (eg XE, XF and the forthcoming F-Pace) which journos who have driven them frequently describe as drivers' cars. In these terms I think it is job done on the marketing front. I had wondered if they would launch a 4 cylinder version but, while that would add to volumes, it would also perhaps detract from its current image.Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.
F-Type
4,629
Corvette Coupe
20,757
...
I would think that this means that each and every unit sold is essential to Jaguar's US operation. And, thus, it's critical to get the equation of features / content / pricing correct for that market.
A glance at the Corvette sales numbers would indicate that F-Type sales are not unhealthy for its niche.
I'd have to have a serious think about any four-cylinder F-Type. If I had to guess, I'd say that the US market will not support such a combination, much as the US market will not support a BMW with a basic engine and a basic vinyl interior (which was not uncommon in BMW's domestic market).
Edited by unsprung on Tuesday 23 February 20:23
As for the current offering I think that AWD is essential for the litigious North American market. I have only driven non-AWD F-types (all versions) at the Milford proving grounds at an event organised by Jaguar. I thought the V8 was an extraordinarily hairy beast, far beyond my pretensions to be a sporty driver. I also read that Jaguar are offering five year warranty and service packages in the USA in order to answer and, hpoefully eliminate, buyers objections based on the perceived unreliability of Jaguar products. My guess is that they have rejigged the product offering in order to answer customer feedback. Time will tell if it has been successful. For the record the reliability of our Jaguar, Range Rover Sport and an earlier Freelander, now owned by our daughter, has been fine.
FYI global annual sales of the F-type were a shade under 12,000 units for the past two calendar years. Total Jaguar sales were only 84,000 units last year and 81,500 units in 2014. This is unsustainably small. The huge product push marked by the launch of XE, XF and F-Pace is remarkable for both its speed, ambition and the confidence in the brand that is held by its new shareholder, Tata - specifically Rajan Tata who is believed to be big fan of the brand.
oldtimer2 said:
A few weeks ago someone mentioned that Jaguar had recruited engineers who had worked on the McClaren P1; and do not forget that the CX-75 was a a very high performance hybrid based on a 1.5 litre engine.
My interest is piqued. And, coincidentally, last week a fun video review of the XJ220 appeared. Just one of many historical highlights that the brand has in its foundation, as it looks to the future.oldtimer2 said:
Total Jaguar sales were only 84,000 units last year and 81,500 units in 2014. This is unsustainably small. The huge product push marked by the launch of XE, XF and F-Pace is remarkable for both its speed, ambition and the confidence in the brand that is held by its new shareholder, Tata - specifically Rajan Tata who is believed to be big fan of the brand.
After you mentioned Tata, I found this recent interview in which he cites the F-Type as the most cherished jewel, if you will, of his work with JLR. Thanks.It's inspiring, this renewed energy. Like most other people, I've been delighted to see the newest saloons (although the long wheelbase XJL remains a personal favourite) as well as the all-important new crossover. Plenty of conquest buyers will be on the forecourt, given these new products. Exciting times.
Edited by unsprung on Wednesday 24th February 19:23
Edited by unsprung on Wednesday 24th February 19:24
oldtimer2 said:
FYI global annual sales of the F-type were a shade under 12,000 units for the past two calendar years. Total Jaguar sales were only 84,000 units last year and 81,500 units in 2014. This is unsustainably small. The huge product push marked by the launch of XE, XF and F-Pace is remarkable for both its speed, ambition and the confidence in the brand that is held by its new shareholder, Tata - specifically Rajan Tata who is believed to be big fan of the brand.
Did you read that last bit from a 2008 press release?No idea who Rajan Tata is but Ratan Tata who was chairman of TATA retired more than 3 years ago. It was no secret that he was a huge fan of the brand and that was a driver behind TATA's purchase of JLR 8 years ago. So hardly a "new shareholder". Under TATA F-Type, F-Pace, XE, new XF, Evoque, L405 RR, L494 RRS, Discovery Sport and new Discovery 5 have all been developed.
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