Just buy the cheaper one and remap it....
Discussion
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Out of curiosity (if you know) what is the power output of the polestar map for these cars? I have a 2010 D3 which has apparently been done. I'm curious to know what it's running at..GTIAlex said:
Lots of interesting stuff about the Ford 1.0 Turbo.
Thanks for that, very helpful. Seems the only mechanical differences in the engine are the turbo material and a head gasket between the 3 power outputs. We'll ignore gearbox and suspension changes as that's not really the OP's point and can come down to the spec i.e. Titanium vs Zebec S.Seems the differences are mostly adjustments to the chip tuning in that case, guess this makes sense financially for car manufacturers.
Late edit:
mike9009 said:
The exhaust turbine wheel is different for a start. I designed the process to make each. The 100bhp is made from IN713c and the 125bhp and 140bhp are made from MARM246. Significant difference in high temp performance and creep resistance between the materials.
Mike
Sorry Mike, didn't spot this first time around. Good to hear from someone that knows. Mike
Edited by poing on Sunday 13th March 18:05
Not a car but the Seadoo Spark jetski has a 900cc motor available in 60hp and 90hp versions, exactly the same mechanically. A button on the dash can change between the two hps on the 90hp version. A few tuning companies offer remains that can be applied to either ski to up the hp to 110+. Doesn't sound much but this thing goes like stink!
The best I would guess is that it can be both, i.e. some cars could have a software detuned version engine so that it fits in with the version's placement in the product range, but the engines are otherwise 100% identical, and with some cars there could be physical differences. E.g. on the 996 Turbo the X50 option only gave an extra 30hp but there were larger turbos fitted (amongst some other only slightly less significant mods).
And since a previous poster mentioned marine engines, several outboards of varying HP (sometimes considerably varying) had the exact same engines bar different carburettors and sometimes exhaust ducts.
E.g. often an 8, 9.9 and 15hp were otherwise identical as could be 40/70hp ones.
Replacing the carbs was common. Checking the specs one would find that the carbs just allowed for higher revs. A 9.9 would peak at (say) 4500rpm and the same engine but 15hp would peak at 5300rpm (all figures for example purposes only)
With EFI and software controlled turbos, it becomes much simpler, I suspect that mechanical differences only arise when the differences in HP are great as a top end engine may require costlier component materials so it would be worth having different cheaper ones where not required. A further suspicion would be that (say) a 110 and (say) a 140 hp engine would be identical whereas if you went up to more serious power then you would have differences.
And since a previous poster mentioned marine engines, several outboards of varying HP (sometimes considerably varying) had the exact same engines bar different carburettors and sometimes exhaust ducts.
E.g. often an 8, 9.9 and 15hp were otherwise identical as could be 40/70hp ones.
Replacing the carbs was common. Checking the specs one would find that the carbs just allowed for higher revs. A 9.9 would peak at (say) 4500rpm and the same engine but 15hp would peak at 5300rpm (all figures for example purposes only)
With EFI and software controlled turbos, it becomes much simpler, I suspect that mechanical differences only arise when the differences in HP are great as a top end engine may require costlier component materials so it would be worth having different cheaper ones where not required. A further suspicion would be that (say) a 110 and (say) a 140 hp engine would be identical whereas if you went up to more serious power then you would have differences.
8potdave said:
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Out of curiosity (if you know) what is the power output of the polestar map for these cars? I have a 2010 D3 which has apparently been done. I'm curious to know what it's running at..https://www.polestar.com/uk/products/model-overvie...
ModernAndy said:
I think this thread is beginning to confirm my suspicions. It seems like there have been a few examples given already where it looks like it's just a remap but there are slightly different components including exhausts (although pedantically that does make the engine the same I suppose if all that is different is the exhaust).
I think with turbocharged units I think you have to view at least the manifold as part of the engine. 
Examples of engines which differ purely by the software are exceptionally rare, although ones with very minor differences, are common and often those differences can often be little or no cost difference at the point of manufacture.
Sometimes the differences come in the form of the margin for safety, so under ideal conditions one engine could perform identically to the other, this is why a lot of say they are the same. But under less ideal conditions the lower spec engine might under perform and/or be much more at risk of failure.
Occasionally you do get example where the engine internals and externals are exactly the same, but there are still usually differences somewhere in the power train, for example the first generation mini one and cooper engines were 100% identical inside and out, but they had a different cat back exhaust and they had different final on the diff, meaning they drove and sounded different even if you installed the mini cooper map on the mini one.
The manufacturing cost difference between the exhaust would have been small, and the diff zero, but to replace them would have set you back over £1k.
And that is completely ignoring the differences in trim, wheels, suspension and other standard options.
When you take it all into account, the manufacturers are still charging a huge premium for performance, but there is little you can do about it. They know all about remapping and the after market, so they make just enough changes to the vehicle in places that cost them little but would cost owners big so that it would never be economical to try and upgrade a car to the next spec level.
Sometimes the differences come in the form of the margin for safety, so under ideal conditions one engine could perform identically to the other, this is why a lot of say they are the same. But under less ideal conditions the lower spec engine might under perform and/or be much more at risk of failure.
Occasionally you do get example where the engine internals and externals are exactly the same, but there are still usually differences somewhere in the power train, for example the first generation mini one and cooper engines were 100% identical inside and out, but they had a different cat back exhaust and they had different final on the diff, meaning they drove and sounded different even if you installed the mini cooper map on the mini one.
The manufacturing cost difference between the exhaust would have been small, and the diff zero, but to replace them would have set you back over £1k.
And that is completely ignoring the differences in trim, wheels, suspension and other standard options.
When you take it all into account, the manufacturers are still charging a huge premium for performance, but there is little you can do about it. They know all about remapping and the after market, so they make just enough changes to the vehicle in places that cost them little but would cost owners big so that it would never be economical to try and upgrade a car to the next spec level.
poing said:
GTIAlex said:
Lots of interesting stuff about the Ford 1.0 Turbo.
Thanks for that, very helpful. Seems the only mechanical differences in the engine are the turbo material and a head gasket between the 3 power outputs. We'll ignore gearbox and suspension changes as that's not really the OP's point and can come down to the spec i.e. Titanium vs Zebec S.Seems the differences are mostly adjustments to the chip tuning in that case, guess this makes sense financially for car manufacturers.
Late edit:
mike9009 said:
The exhaust turbine wheel is different for a start. I designed the process to make each. The 100bhp is made from IN713c and the 125bhp and 140bhp are made from MARM246. Significant difference in high temp performance and creep resistance between the materials.
Mike
Sorry Mike, didn't spot this first time around. Good to hear from someone that knows. Mike
Edited by poing on Sunday 13th March 18:05
Also highlights slightly that one may be able to remap a car to reach the next models power but should also take into consideration changes to the brakes/suspension and gearbox.
Take an Audi S6...could be remapped (with some other slight mods) to rs6 levels of power, but the gearbox wont last long.
Power corrupts
Just had the ecu on my Rover 75 1.8T (147BHP) reprogrammed so it thinks its am MG ZT (160BHP).
Emgine/turbo wise both cars are identical bar the map.
13BHP doesnt sound a lot but the car is so much smoother right across the rev range and feels considerably quicker. Cost me a £100 for the remap and £54 extra on the insurance. Only regret is not having it done when I first go the car.
Emgine/turbo wise both cars are identical bar the map.
13BHP doesnt sound a lot but the car is so much smoother right across the rev range and feels considerably quicker. Cost me a £100 for the remap and £54 extra on the insurance. Only regret is not having it done when I first go the car.
ModernAndy said:
CaptainMorgan said:
One of the recent transporters comes in 84hp and higher power versions, no hardware differences resulting in huge map gains.
Do you mean they all remap to the same power output?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff