Investment Cars
Discussion
Guvernator said:
Esceptico said:
A pox on all you a
holes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.
100% agree. Buy a car, usually one with racing\motorsport influence which is designed to be driven....and then stick it in a garage where it hardly turns a wheel. If I was in charge, anyone who owned a car which did less than 3000 miles a year would have it removed from their possession and given to someone more worthy.holes buying cars as investments and driving prices out of reach of enthusiasts that just want to own and drive them. I hope the market collapses and you all lose lots of money.
I've bought one that is supposedly an investment car, but it won't be sitting still
The Mitsubishi GTO\3000GT was pretty much lauded as a crap, overcomplicated, overweight car at a time when the Japanese where producing some of their best cars. Most Japanese cars around that era have appreciated because people have re-discovered how nice they are to drive in a world of heavyweight, overcomplicated new cars.
Unless their is a massive turn around of opinion, I can't see them going up in value any time soon.
Unless their is a massive turn around of opinion, I can't see them going up in value any time soon.
roystinho said:
Me too.
There's loads of cars on these type of lists I'd love to own, but they're getting to a price point where they are no good for sticking some miles on and enjoying, too precious and valuable. Also the circles these cars end up in are full of people I don't really fancy associating with, talking investment and how much you've made - boring fkers, how about go for a proper drive and talk about what a great car it is???
I'll stop ranting
The answer to your problem then is simple - and cheap.There's loads of cars on these type of lists I'd love to own, but they're getting to a price point where they are no good for sticking some miles on and enjoying, too precious and valuable. Also the circles these cars end up in are full of people I don't really fancy associating with, talking investment and how much you've made - boring f
kers, how about go for a proper drive and talk about what a great car it is???I'll stop ranting
R129 SL500 if what you want is a barge arse cruise car, or
RX7 FC3 turbo 5spd if what you want is a cheap s
tter that is nucken futs and a whole lot of fun to lose traction in...]
[/quote]
Got me thinking this so had a tott up
Purchase price £33500 12 years ago
Covered 22000 miles in that time
Insurance comes in at £6750 odd for that period
Maintenance all in (including tyres etc) just over £12000
Worked the fuel out as 90 pence a litre as an average price over the time period and 19mpg (miles covered / mpg X 4.5 X .09)
So £4234
So only thing not accounted for is valets really
Total £56484
Current values from 70k to 120k
Can be done not that it was ever intended !
[/quote]
what car would that be ?
[/quote]
Got me thinking this so had a tott up
Purchase price £33500 12 years ago
Covered 22000 miles in that time
Insurance comes in at £6750 odd for that period
Maintenance all in (including tyres etc) just over £12000
Worked the fuel out as 90 pence a litre as an average price over the time period and 19mpg (miles covered / mpg X 4.5 X .09)
So £4234
So only thing not accounted for is valets really
Total £56484
Current values from 70k to 120k
Can be done not that it was ever intended !
[/quote]
what car would that be ?
Edited by MDMA . on Monday 16th May 15:13
SuperVM said:
Andy20vt said:
B5 RS4's starting to go up strongly at the moment, good ones have gone up approx £3-4k over the last 18 months. Okay so not going to make you a fortune but it more than covers the running costs of using it as a daily drive etc. Expect they'll go up quite a bit further too, only ever 500 x in the UK, first ever RS4, Cosworth connection etc, etc.
I don't think that covers the running costs of using a B5 RS4 as a daily drive, in my experience they are pretty costly to run and that's without a turbo going wrong. Tuvra said:
405dogvan said:
Someone has to say this - almost NO cars are good financial investments.
Maybe if you exploit the market (buy a tatty/poorly priced car and sell-on) but OWNING a car will always cost you money (insurance, storage, maintenance, fighting-off depreciation, finding an actual buyer - all cost money)
Obviously some cars will soften the blow by holding value/being easy to sell (the latter being FAR more important than the former) but a lot of this idea of cars which are 'good investments' is based on hot air/myths/careful man-maths!!
Again, I have to strongly disagree, many cars have appreciated hugely in recent times; Alfa 8C, Aston Martin Vanquish, Ford GT, Ferrari 550/575, Porsche GT3's, Mercedes SLS, Mercedes SLR's, TVR's, Noble's etc. Maybe if you exploit the market (buy a tatty/poorly priced car and sell-on) but OWNING a car will always cost you money (insurance, storage, maintenance, fighting-off depreciation, finding an actual buyer - all cost money)
Obviously some cars will soften the blow by holding value/being easy to sell (the latter being FAR more important than the former) but a lot of this idea of cars which are 'good investments' is based on hot air/myths/careful man-maths!!
I suppose the key is when you get onto the depreciation/appreciation curve, SLS's for examples were changing hands for 90 odd grand a few years back, now they are up £140k+, which although was probably their new cost, they have in fact depreciated and then appreciated again quickly, same as things like the BMW 1M & M3 CSL.
I don't think adding in running costs and insurance etc is really relevant to the appreciation value of a car?
The depreciation/appreciation curve is possibly the best way to understand all this, whilst I don't really agree with people buying cars, shoving them in a garage and hoping to coin it in some time in the future. Can you blame someone who buys a car now at a relatively low price, has a great time in it and happens to sell it for far more than they paid for it in the first place? I'd say that's the best way to enjoy your hobby
I think anyone who is thinking about investing in cars at this stage in the market is asking for trouble.
I sold my Ferrari 328 GTS about 10 years ago for £30k, and it is now probably worth £90k ( it had a few more miles than the usual 100 on it ... ). So in theory, that makes me look like a fool.
BUT when you factor in about £4k a year to garage ( in London ), insure , tax and generally maintain, plus probably another £1k a year if you had to borrow the money to purchase, and we're talking about £5k a year, or £50k over the 10 years. And that is before anything BIG goes wrong ( and big things will go expensively wrong at some stage in the 10 years of owning a 30 year old car with a prancing horse on it ).
So, even with my absolutely lousy timing, I may or may not have broken even. But the point is, this was during the period of THE ABSOLUTE best increases in prices that we have probably ever seen for "classic" cars ( with maybe the exception of the bubble in the 80's, and those with long memories will know where that ended ). Such rises are very unlikely to happen again. The market has already risen to the level where the people buying now are "investors", looking to flip cars on to even bigger fools then themselves. "Collectors", or those who simply like cars, are either priced out or already have something.
This is now a bubble and it can only end one way......
I sold my Ferrari 328 GTS about 10 years ago for £30k, and it is now probably worth £90k ( it had a few more miles than the usual 100 on it ... ). So in theory, that makes me look like a fool.
BUT when you factor in about £4k a year to garage ( in London ), insure , tax and generally maintain, plus probably another £1k a year if you had to borrow the money to purchase, and we're talking about £5k a year, or £50k over the 10 years. And that is before anything BIG goes wrong ( and big things will go expensively wrong at some stage in the 10 years of owning a 30 year old car with a prancing horse on it ).
So, even with my absolutely lousy timing, I may or may not have broken even. But the point is, this was during the period of THE ABSOLUTE best increases in prices that we have probably ever seen for "classic" cars ( with maybe the exception of the bubble in the 80's, and those with long memories will know where that ended ). Such rises are very unlikely to happen again. The market has already risen to the level where the people buying now are "investors", looking to flip cars on to even bigger fools then themselves. "Collectors", or those who simply like cars, are either priced out or already have something.
This is now a bubble and it can only end one way......
Guvernator said:
The Mitsubishi GTO\3000GT was pretty much lauded as a crap, overcomplicated, overweight car at a time when the Japanese where producing some of their best cars. Most Japanese cars around that era have appreciated because people have re-discovered how nice they are to drive in a world of heavyweight, overcomplicated new cars.
Unless their is a massive turn around of opinion, I can't see them going up in value any time soon.
Maybe not soon, but eventually rarity will make it worth something. Low volume and plenty of interesting age related features will make it somewhat valuable.Unless their is a massive turn around of opinion, I can't see them going up in value any time soon.
As few people have mentioned on this thread, we are in the mother of all asset bubbles driven by low interest rates.
This has only really been happening to car prices since 2008 yet it feels like it has been going on for so long now everyone just expects it to continue. Red flag!
This will only end one way, as someone already mentioned, and barely any of the cars mentioned here will be of much value bar from the few truly exceptional ones.
There will be some great cars to pick up at much lower prices in future, but who are the true enthusiasts who will buy cars knowing they won't make a profit in them?
This has only really been happening to car prices since 2008 yet it feels like it has been going on for so long now everyone just expects it to continue. Red flag!
This will only end one way, as someone already mentioned, and barely any of the cars mentioned here will be of much value bar from the few truly exceptional ones.
There will be some great cars to pick up at much lower prices in future, but who are the true enthusiasts who will buy cars knowing they won't make a profit in them?
Edited by dannymullered on Monday 16th May 15:39
MDMA .] said:
Purchase price £33500 12 years ago
Covered 22000 miles in that time
Insurance comes in at £6750 odd for that period
Maintenance all in (including tyres etc) just over £12000
Worked the fuel out as 90 pence a litre as an average price over the time period and 19mpg (miles covered / mpg X 4.5 X .09)
So £4234
So only thing not accounted for is valets really
Total £56484
Current values from 70k to 120k
Can be done not that it was ever intended !
Edited by MDMA . on Monday 16th May 15:13
i can tell you a bunch of cars that will steadily go up, any car i've thought would has, some of these already starting to move, cars that move most are always low mileage stuff,
clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
Slb89 said:
i can tell you a bunch of cars that will steadily go up, any car i've thought would has, some of these already starting to move, cars that move most are always low mileage stuff,
clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
I would bet all the money I had that none of these cars will be worth more than their current values in 10 years time, and most of them will have depreciated except, perhaps, for GT3's. clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
lythaby said:
You need a car that has fallen a bit under the radar, made in limited numbers, maybe slightly over-priced at the time so it has limited sales, not just limited production, in good condition.
On that basis a good Celica GT4 can't be a bad place to put your money. A car with a succesful rally heritage that has been forgotten about, as far as the market is concerned, for some reason.I've been following housing and car markets for longer than I remember. Bought into both. My view on two points raised here:
Inflation/appreciation - the difference between your house and your car. Largely speaking when house prices rise - they all rise. So unless you're moving out of the area you will still spend the same money to buy an equivalent house. Effectively no net gain. If your 20 year old Fiesta becomes worth 50K, you don’t sell it and buy another 20 year old Fiesta. So you make money.
Bubbles - the housing market actually has more supply than the car market and is more susceptible to local demand. The classic car market believe it or not has a more limited supply. New houses are built every year (maybe not quick enough), but how many Daytona’s or Mark 1 Golf GTIs were built last year? The classic car market is also insulated from country economics – I called about a Ferrari 348 spider in Spain to be told it was sold and on its way to China. The market is international. It could collapse, but it will take world economics to hit the skids. What does that mean about “as safe as houses”?
BTW – I’ve made a small amount on rental house. I’ve made a small profit on a VX220 and showing a profit on the Spider I eventually bought. However, I didn’t have big enough balls to invest in housing in 2000-2004, and I bottled out of buying an Aston Martin DBS, a Ferrari 355, a Ferrari 456, a 1980s Porsche 911 turbo in the last 6 or 7 years.
If I had a big barn, I’d fill it full of 80s and 90s hot hatches and low volume high end or sports cars at the bottom of the deprecation curve, lock the door and come back in 15 years. Anyone got a barn to lend??
Inflation/appreciation - the difference between your house and your car. Largely speaking when house prices rise - they all rise. So unless you're moving out of the area you will still spend the same money to buy an equivalent house. Effectively no net gain. If your 20 year old Fiesta becomes worth 50K, you don’t sell it and buy another 20 year old Fiesta. So you make money.
Bubbles - the housing market actually has more supply than the car market and is more susceptible to local demand. The classic car market believe it or not has a more limited supply. New houses are built every year (maybe not quick enough), but how many Daytona’s or Mark 1 Golf GTIs were built last year? The classic car market is also insulated from country economics – I called about a Ferrari 348 spider in Spain to be told it was sold and on its way to China. The market is international. It could collapse, but it will take world economics to hit the skids. What does that mean about “as safe as houses”?
BTW – I’ve made a small amount on rental house. I’ve made a small profit on a VX220 and showing a profit on the Spider I eventually bought. However, I didn’t have big enough balls to invest in housing in 2000-2004, and I bottled out of buying an Aston Martin DBS, a Ferrari 355, a Ferrari 456, a 1980s Porsche 911 turbo in the last 6 or 7 years.
If I had a big barn, I’d fill it full of 80s and 90s hot hatches and low volume high end or sports cars at the bottom of the deprecation curve, lock the door and come back in 15 years. Anyone got a barn to lend??
kaiowas said:
On that basis a good Celica GT4 can't be a bad place to put your money. A car with a succesful rally heritage that has been forgotten about, as far as the market is concerned, for some reason.
This is a good shout. I bought my low mileage ST205 for 2k 3 years ago. Now a decent one costs 5-6k. In 3 years time they will be available to import into the US as well and they love their Toyota's.Kierkegaard said:
Mercedes SL R107
Gullwings are £1m+ ...Increasing
Pagodas £100k+ ...Increasing
Natural order dictates good original R107s will be increasing too..
Next will be R129s
I certainly hope so as I'm planning to move my R107 350SL on soon.Gullwings are £1m+ ...Increasing
Pagodas £100k+ ...Increasing
Natural order dictates good original R107s will be increasing too..
Next will be R129s
Truckosaurus said:
Isn't the main driver of R32 price increases that they are now eligible to be imported into the USA as they are 25yrs old.
So, R33 and R34 will surely follow the same pattern in a few years time.
I was thinking this recently, and it's made me very tempted to buy an R33. I've noticed R33 GTR prices have already started rising, but GTST's can still be bought for very little money.So, R33 and R34 will surely follow the same pattern in a few years time.
pilchard8 said:
The mk4 Supra I purchased 18 months ago is rising steadily in price, but with the money ive spent on it to enjoy it its probably about break even. Still, depreciation proof motoring is all good in my eyes.
liamthedude said:
I know its started already, but I think the Toyota Supra, twin turbo with a manual box seem to command higher prices, than other specifications.
This is frustrating as I've wanted a Supra for a long, long time. And now I'm finally in a position to own one I'm being priced out of the market. Twin turbo manual cars are easily £15K+ now and still rising - good for owners, not so much for me!I'm surprised about the mention of Mitsubishi GTOs/3000GTs. They never shared the same popularity as their peers, and although they're becoming rarer I can't ever see them reaching the levels of Supras or Skylines.
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