Electric cars - finally a counter arguement...
Discussion
Jimbo. said:
Valgar said:
eh?
If you wanted to convince people not to buy EV vehicles just look at a 3 year old LEAF and see the depreciation
If that's not enough check out the price of a replacement battery £5000+
And how often does that happen?If you wanted to convince people not to buy EV vehicles just look at a 3 year old LEAF and see the depreciation
If that's not enough check out the price of a replacement battery £5000+
The reason they depreciate as much as they do is due to 95% of the general public who still think that batteries need replaced and daft stories like this.
I had so many stupid questions from friends when I had my Leaf.
Jimbo. said:
Nope: push the brake pedal and the regen facility kicks in, performing a large chunk of the slowing. Also, should the car have the option of variable regen, then you can use that as the brakes to help you slow, using the friction brake to pull you to a stop only. The Outlander PHEV I had last year, with the regen turned to max, would slow surprising hard without the friction brakes.
I know, wife has a leaf, my comment was when I was replying to regeneration on an ice carPhunk said:
As with most cars nowadays no one pays full price for them when new. So depreciation isn't actually that bad.
The reason they depreciate as much as they do is due to 95% of the general public who still think that batteries need replaced and daft stories like this.
I had so many stupid questions from friends when I had my Leaf.
We had something like £6k or 7k knocked off ours when we bought it new. Why would you buy a 3 year old one when they are so affordable new? The reason they depreciate as much as they do is due to 95% of the general public who still think that batteries need replaced and daft stories like this.
I had so many stupid questions from friends when I had my Leaf.
98elise said:
Your maths is still very suspect The extra weight is 250kg.which you think some of that is "probably" the motor? Its an entire extra motor, gearbox, drive and control system so its a lot of the extra weight.
Edited to add....it looks like the extra motor/drive is around 150kg, so the extra battery is about 100kg. Using your example that makes the whole battery around £300kg.
Doesn't really matter whether the battery is 550kg or 750 Kg - it is still a load of weight to be hauling around. Even the 60 kW version (2 WD, nothing fancy) is still a 2 tonne car. Having looked up the weight of an electric drivetrain, I'm actually surprised how heavy it is - about 140 Kg, which is not that far adrift of the average ICE. Edited to add....it looks like the extra motor/drive is around 150kg, so the extra battery is about 100kg. Using your example that makes the whole battery around £300kg.
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 25th May 21:45
Jimbo. said:
Valgar said:
eh?
If you wanted to convince people not to buy EV vehicles just look at a 3 year old LEAF and see the depreciation
If that's not enough check out the price of a replacement battery £5000+
And how often does that happen?If you wanted to convince people not to buy EV vehicles just look at a 3 year old LEAF and see the depreciation
If that's not enough check out the price of a replacement battery £5000+
pherlopolus said:
Jimbo. said:
Nope: push the brake pedal and the regen facility kicks in, performing a large chunk of the slowing. Also, should the car have the option of variable regen, then you can use that as the brakes to help you slow, using the friction brake to pull you to a stop only. The Outlander PHEV I had last year, with the regen turned to max, would slow surprising hard without the friction brakes.
I know, wife has a leaf, my comment was when I was replying to regeneration on an ice carRoo said:
It's a bloody great big seven seater. How much do you think it should weigh?
The point I am making is that big range batteries are heavy. Doesn't matter if they are over half a tonne, or 3/4 of a tonne, that is still a lot of weight to have on the table before you start building a car. A reasonable sized tank of petrol is about 1/10th the weight. As to overall weight - well we could compare the 4WD version to that well known example of automotive lightness, the X5 - which is lighter than a 4WD Tesla. Not by much, but it is lighter. Also 7 seats etc. Now, I'm not saying the X5 is a great example of efficiency, they're both very heavy cars.
The cost of extracting Lithium is having a major impact on the countries from where it's being mined. The true cost is starting to show & EV isn't the green answer it's being touted as, (it's just a different form of propulsion) also the way Hybrids mpg is calculated is to be changed to & will be brought into line with ICE so the true mpg can be seen by consumers.
Look at the articles below the true cost of EV's is only just starting to unfold.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...
Look at the articles below the true cost of EV's is only just starting to unfold.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Wednesday 25th May 23:47
Argument - more 'emission' due to heavier, from brake dust and bitumen/tyres.
Proof? none.
Reality -
BEV cars regen brake and dont actually use their brake pads much at all.
BEV cars are not significantly heavier than similar ICE cars
Lets not forget all nose nasty CO2 and NOx gasses etc the ICE's chuck out when not pretending to pass emission tests..
Proof? none.
Reality -
BEV cars regen brake and dont actually use their brake pads much at all.
BEV cars are not significantly heavier than similar ICE cars
Lets not forget all nose nasty CO2 and NOx gasses etc the ICE's chuck out when not pretending to pass emission tests..
Phunk said:
Yes they are slightly heavier than the equivalent ICE car but nothing in comparison to a SUV!
The brake pad thing is utter rubbish, electric cars use the regen to slow down 90% of the time, most pads and discs last over 100k!
And your point is what exactly?The brake pad thing is utter rubbish, electric cars use the regen to slow down 90% of the time, most pads and discs last over 100k!
My 123d had 81K miles recorded when I sold it and according to the OBC had another 15K to go before it needed new brakes (and I bought it as a pre-reg with 20 miles recorded)! So a plug-in appliance may do another few miles - wow, that is real progress - or might be if it didn't drive like a POS!
How much CO2 is generated in making the battery pack? How much CO2 is generated in recycling the defunct battery pack when it dies? And in the UK, how much of the electricity required for the plug-in process is CO2 neutral?
F***all I expect, but loads of CO2 in the ozone layer from Chinese coal-fired power-stations making battery packs!
Seems to me the CO2 tax driven by the EU (which we may hopefully leave soon!) is just a revenue raising exercise - or did I miss something?
Mr Tidy said:
How much CO2 is generated in making the battery pack?
How much CO2 is generated by drilling,transporting, refining your petrol? If you are going to take into account (fairly for sure) every aspect of a BEV vehicle you have to do the same for an ICE.But anyhow, the BEV works out better plus its emission are contained in larger plants away from people and far easier to manage and optimise.
Mr Tidy said:
How much CO2 is generated in making the battery pack? How much CO2 is generated in recycling the defunct battery pack when it dies? And in the UK, how much of the electricity required for the plug-in process is CO2 neutral?
F***all I expect, but loads of CO2 in the ozone layer from Chinese coal-fired power-stations making battery packs!
Seems to me the CO2 tax driven by the EU (which we may hopefully leave soon!) is just a revenue raising exercise - or did I miss something?
You might have read this, but if not you should. It's an irreverent, but very good and long look into Tesla and electric cars in general:F***all I expect, but loads of CO2 in the ozone layer from Chinese coal-fired power-stations making battery packs!
Seems to me the CO2 tax driven by the EU (which we may hopefully leave soon!) is just a revenue raising exercise - or did I miss something?
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-chang...
TL:DR version seems to be that, even using coal, using a Tesla still produces less CO2 than most similar sized cars. It's heads and shoulders above diesels for nasties such as NOX, etc, which are what matter more in an urban environment.
The article (if you can call it that) is trying to suggest that because they are heavy, they produce more local pollutants in the form of brake dust and tyre wear, but I can't find the study it mentions.
glazbagun said:
but I can't find the study it mentions.
wasnt hard.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...
haha ok looking at it.
Victor R.J.H. Timmers: Listed as the first author.
bachelors in engineering. No experience in the automotive field, 2 months experience as a RA studying the environment. Then he started working for INNAS BV as an intern and got first authorship on this paper.
Peter A.J. Achten (second author)?
Zero other publications listed, but his contact in ScienceDirect is the address of... INNAS BV.
Who is INNAS BV?
http://www.innas.com/
Oh they develop the Chiron free piston engine... a 'not dirty' 2 stroke ICE.
Absolutely no bias there at all.
Victor R.J.H. Timmers: Listed as the first author.
bachelors in engineering. No experience in the automotive field, 2 months experience as a RA studying the environment. Then he started working for INNAS BV as an intern and got first authorship on this paper.
Peter A.J. Achten (second author)?
Zero other publications listed, but his contact in ScienceDirect is the address of... INNAS BV.
Who is INNAS BV?
http://www.innas.com/
Oh they develop the Chiron free piston engine... a 'not dirty' 2 stroke ICE.
Absolutely no bias there at all.
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