RE: Jag's knuckle sandwich to the Germans: PH Blog
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm not sure I understand the hatred of S-Line and M-Sport type packages. Their sales support that many people whilst not being able or wanting to drive the big engine halo models, do not want to go full oldgit and roll and pitch their way to the bingo hall. I don't believe marketing is so powerful as to sell people cars they don't actually like repeatedly.
But that's the point. Standard suspension packages offered by premium manufacturers don't "roll and pitch", they're almost universally very good. Based on experience, they also don't make me feel my Coccyx is being lightly kicked for £350 a month when I'm going to the airport or taking the dog to the Vets.The sporting pretense is just that for most people's needs, and I know you cannot honest believe that salesmen would not attempt to sell you something you don't need, or that the masses could not be convinced they need it. Does a 20 minute test ride really tell you everything you need to know about living with car's handling set up? Especially if like most of the population, you take the salesman as the authority in cars?
You sound like you have preference, and if you are indeed driving the more expensive models perhaps you have the engine and use it in a way to back it up. But most simply don't.
Zod said:
The thread title is irritating, jingoistic and misleading.
Just a bit of fun - you read the story and understood it was about the value of Jaguar investing in a new suspension knuckle to improve steering feel in the F-Type rather than just resorting to electronic modes like the rivals from German brands? That was the inspiration so I'll take exception at 'misleading'. Irritating? Possibly. Jingoistic? Light heartedly so perhaps. As I said in the story, Jaguar's challenge is finding a snappy way of selling the benefits of a suspension knuckle. I gave it a go!
Dan
I tend to agree with the original article.
If I wanted a hard core, stiff suspended hot hatch style car, that's what I'd buy.
One of the reasons my RX8 is still here (Aside from the fact that I STILL can't find anything I like better) is that it has a great compromise between handling and ride FOR ME.
Of course, some will think that it needs to be stiffer (I drove one of the R3s, it felt like a hot hatch and I suspect appealed to those who were looking to upgrade from one of those to something more sporty in styling), but I'm not sure one model NEEDS to be all things to all men.
Mercedes, Audi and BMW all offer Sport and Race-y versions of nearly every model they make, even laughably the SUVs! So why, then, offer 4 or 5 settings for everything on top of that?
I like the idea that Jaguar decided they could engineer something better into the car than simply code something to make it seem better, too.
Of course, the Germans tend to setup their cars for German roads, which are (mostly) billiard table smooth, so you need to have something to soften the suspension or you wheels barely ever touch the tarmac on British roads!
M
If I wanted a hard core, stiff suspended hot hatch style car, that's what I'd buy.
One of the reasons my RX8 is still here (Aside from the fact that I STILL can't find anything I like better) is that it has a great compromise between handling and ride FOR ME.
Of course, some will think that it needs to be stiffer (I drove one of the R3s, it felt like a hot hatch and I suspect appealed to those who were looking to upgrade from one of those to something more sporty in styling), but I'm not sure one model NEEDS to be all things to all men.
Mercedes, Audi and BMW all offer Sport and Race-y versions of nearly every model they make, even laughably the SUVs! So why, then, offer 4 or 5 settings for everything on top of that?
I like the idea that Jaguar decided they could engineer something better into the car than simply code something to make it seem better, too.
Of course, the Germans tend to setup their cars for German roads, which are (mostly) billiard table smooth, so you need to have something to soften the suspension or you wheels barely ever touch the tarmac on British roads!
M
Dan Trent said:
Just a bit of fun - you read the story and understood it was about the value of Jaguar investing in a new suspension knuckle to improve steering feel in the F-Type rather than just resorting to electronic modes like the rivals from German brands? That was the inspiration so I'll take exception at 'misleading'. Irritating? Possibly. Jingoistic? Light heartedly so perhaps.
As I said in the story, Jaguar's challenge is finding a snappy way of selling the benefits of a suspension knuckle. I gave it a go!
Dan
Problem is Dan, it is a solution to solve a problem created mainly by EPS.As I said in the story, Jaguar's challenge is finding a snappy way of selling the benefits of a suspension knuckle. I gave it a go!
Dan
Safety, economy and some aspects of ultimate performance are driving car design in way that is significantly impacting driving pleasure.
Personally I'm going (gone) back to low volume manufacturers such as radical, ultima, ariel etc, so I get down to the pure driving pleasure with a low weight/simple car. Sure I've comprised safety, comfort and practicality, but the sensory overload and grin factor makes up for that
Dan Trent said:
The point I'm making in this blog is that when it came to sharpening the steering of the F-Type it was felt investment in some expensive hardware - the suspension knuckle - was of sufficient importance it got signed off. When it might have been - relatively - much cheaper to contrive a sense of the same through a fiddle with the damper and EPAS calibration or any number of other software based tweaks. I think this is an important cultural difference and an engineering mindset I find admirable and worth celebrating.
Like their competitors then!You can't reach a certain performance level without hardware than delivers. Jaguar know this, but they are not in any way alone in knowing this.
There is no cultural difference in terms of knowing what to do to achieve competitive or better performance. The only cultural difference I have experienced is that in Germany the engineers get more say. Maybe this is happening more at Jaguar, I hope so as I really like their cars.
GranCab said:
My dishwasher has lots of different settings but I only ever use one ...
That was exactly the point I was going to make.Even my humble 1.4 Audi A4 has various drive select modes so it appears to be a more common occurrence in modern cars to offer up some variation in the driving dynamics available to the customer.
The thing is, these generally only get played with when the car is new to the owner to find the mode that they prefer. So for my car I stuck it in dynamic mode which was ok and then it's stayed there ever since.
When journos jump in and out of new machinery and have to acclimatise to their new surroundings and explore the various modes to explain the dynamics to the punters, I could see how the crazy number of customisable modes could prove annoying.
However, to the average punter, they'll try the modes out and then stick to one. Or maybe have one for day to day and one for more fun driving. So it's only a faff at the early stage of ownership. After that, it's a non-issue.
k-ink said:
My Alfa Quadrifoglio has three settings:
1. Winter.
2. Sharp steering and sharp throttle, but rock hard suspension - no good for UK roads.
3. Soft steering, vague and useless throttle, sensible suspension.
You cannot mix and match. So crap.
My (1.4 170) Giulietta has the DNA switch, and I find it's spot on. It doesn't even pretend to be a sports car but the 'Dynamic' setting has enough fun dialed in to make it entertaining.1. Winter.
2. Sharp steering and sharp throttle, but rock hard suspension - no good for UK roads.
3. Soft steering, vague and useless throttle, sensible suspension.
You cannot mix and match. So crap.
I had a Jag XF Sportbrake and the use of the 'sport' and 'dynamic' buttons was all the configuration I needed. Motorway wafter to b-road howler in a press and a twiddle.
A friend's Macan has an utterly bewildering array of buttons on the center console, and I'm sure he's never even opened the handbook to see what they all do. One has a picture of a damper on it, he's thinks it's a telescope.
I agree that simple is best.
My E39 M5 has 2 buttons: TC off and sports mode - the later sharpens up the throttle response and weights up the steering.
Personally I would be happy just with 1 button in the M5 - TC off.
Having driven newer M3s and M5s, I cannot be bothered playing around with the settings as I always feel I am never in the "optimal" setting.
Its like having 16 way adjustable seats - unnecessary and excessive weight.
My E39 M5 has 2 buttons: TC off and sports mode - the later sharpens up the throttle response and weights up the steering.
Personally I would be happy just with 1 button in the M5 - TC off.
Having driven newer M3s and M5s, I cannot be bothered playing around with the settings as I always feel I am never in the "optimal" setting.
Its like having 16 way adjustable seats - unnecessary and excessive weight.
This is exactly what is wrong with modern (sports)cars. They have a load of buttons, none of which do what you precisely want, when you want it. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't make it the right thing to do.I applaud Jaguar for building a car which mechanically does what it should. That's precisely what I want in my car, a good mechanical set up with some electronic wizardry up it's sleeve, for when I temporarily run out of brains or talent, to keep me out of the hedge. I don't want a load of buttons which mess up the cars handling, and never seeming to be in the right mode, neither do I want any form of engine or fake exhaust sound piped into the cabin (how utterly naff is that).
My 996 has recently been expertly fettled by the genius's at Centre Gravity, and they have dialled in the perfect set up for me. If I want it pointy like a GT3, they can do that for me, if I want a comfortable GT car, they can do that, if I want it somewhere in between, they can do that too. All this from an excellently engineered car, with quality suspension and dampers etc. I have one button on the dash for the electronic gizmo's, on or off. The rest, I learn what the car will/can do and drive it accordingly for the roads and conditions I am faced with. THIS is what makes driving so much fun, it's ME that has to make the decisions and not the car. I have to adapt my driving, not just press a couple of buttons, get the car to do it for me.
It's no wonder that so many keen drivers are turning away from new cars and looking back to older stuff where the driver, not the car, made the difference.
My 996 has recently been expertly fettled by the genius's at Centre Gravity, and they have dialled in the perfect set up for me. If I want it pointy like a GT3, they can do that for me, if I want a comfortable GT car, they can do that, if I want it somewhere in between, they can do that too. All this from an excellently engineered car, with quality suspension and dampers etc. I have one button on the dash for the electronic gizmo's, on or off. The rest, I learn what the car will/can do and drive it accordingly for the roads and conditions I am faced with. THIS is what makes driving so much fun, it's ME that has to make the decisions and not the car. I have to adapt my driving, not just press a couple of buttons, get the car to do it for me.
It's no wonder that so many keen drivers are turning away from new cars and looking back to older stuff where the driver, not the car, made the difference.
Simpler the better for me, the configurability takes most of the character out of a car; technically perfect, realistically boring.
My car has many 'settings', most do nowadays; the most I do is switch between 'kids in the back' and 'thirsty for petrol' modes.
The rest is just to give the salesman something to talk about I reckon.
My car has many 'settings', most do nowadays; the most I do is switch between 'kids in the back' and 'thirsty for petrol' modes.
The rest is just to give the salesman something to talk about I reckon.
Prof Prolapse said:
jamieduff1981 said:
I'm not sure I understand the hatred of S-Line and M-Sport type packages. Their sales support that many people whilst not being able or wanting to drive the big engine halo models, do not want to go full oldgit and roll and pitch their way to the bingo hall. I don't believe marketing is so powerful as to sell people cars they don't actually like repeatedly.
But that's the point. Standard suspension packages offered by premium manufacturers don't "roll and pitch", they're almost universally very good. Based on experience, they also don't make me feel my Coccyx is being lightly kicked for £350 a month when I'm going to the airport or taking the dog to the Vets.The sporting pretense is just that for most people's needs, and I know you cannot honest believe that salesmen would not attempt to sell you something you don't need, or that the masses could not be convinced they need it. Does a 20 minute test ride really tell you everything you need to know about living with car's handling set up? Especially if like most of the population, you take the salesman as the authority in cars?
You sound like you have preference, and if you are indeed driving the more expensive models perhaps you have the engine and use it in a way to back it up. But most simply don't.
Standard suspension in a 3 Series or C Class is intolerable to anyone with even the slightest interest in or appreciation for dynamics. It's like driving a boat.
Dan Trent said:
Zod said:
The thread title is irritating, jingoistic and misleading.
Just a bit of fun - you read the story and understood it was about the value of Jaguar investing in a new suspension knuckle to improve steering feel in the F-Type rather than just resorting to electronic modes like the rivals from German brands? That was the inspiration so I'll take exception at 'misleading'. Irritating? Possibly. Jingoistic? Light heartedly so perhaps. As I said in the story, Jaguar's challenge is finding a snappy way of selling the benefits of a suspension knuckle. I gave it a go!
Dan
I've driven boggo 3ers and C classes a couple of times and wouldn't even consider one with standard suspension. The M-Sport suspension is streets ahead for my needs and wants. I don't know about the harder C class suaoension, but the standard set up is without any engagement or feel.
To be fair, the only 3er with standard suspension that I have driven hard was a 320d ED. It COULD handle well (betraying its fundamentally decent chassis and layout) if you drove it hard, but it's a boat at anything less than 8/10 driving. Perversely, it's worse in precisely the day-to-day driving for which people say standard suspension is best - cruising around on high speed A roads is pretty horrible in something with so little body control, whereas the chassis is predictable and fairly communicative if you really lean on the tyres and try to throttle steer a little. Basically, a good car that you won't uncover if you're the kind of person that shuns 'sporty suspension'; and if you like firmer suspension, you'd never buy the boat in the first place so never find out that it's tolerable at maximum attack (more so than pootling). I hated driving it for 1,000 miles but had fun in it for 40 miles on challenging B-roads.
The M3 isn't bad because its suspension is too firm, is it? It's bad for a million other reasons but wouldn't benefit from the boaty suspension of a boggo 3er. I've never driven an M135 but haven't enjoyed any of the 1 Series I have driven. I don't get that car, to be honest - hot hatches are supposed to be FWD in my world
To be fair, the only 3er with standard suspension that I have driven hard was a 320d ED. It COULD handle well (betraying its fundamentally decent chassis and layout) if you drove it hard, but it's a boat at anything less than 8/10 driving. Perversely, it's worse in precisely the day-to-day driving for which people say standard suspension is best - cruising around on high speed A roads is pretty horrible in something with so little body control, whereas the chassis is predictable and fairly communicative if you really lean on the tyres and try to throttle steer a little. Basically, a good car that you won't uncover if you're the kind of person that shuns 'sporty suspension'; and if you like firmer suspension, you'd never buy the boat in the first place so never find out that it's tolerable at maximum attack (more so than pootling). I hated driving it for 1,000 miles but had fun in it for 40 miles on challenging B-roads.
The M3 isn't bad because its suspension is too firm, is it? It's bad for a million other reasons but wouldn't benefit from the boaty suspension of a boggo 3er. I've never driven an M135 but haven't enjoyed any of the 1 Series I have driven. I don't get that car, to be honest - hot hatches are supposed to be FWD in my world
Dan,
This post, which completely misses the truth of the matter, is what I was getting at when I said you were mis-representing the situation.
Grumpynuts has read your article and interpreted it that the Jag is more intrinsically mechanically capable rather than relying on electronic multi-modes. Which is b
ks.
This post, which completely misses the truth of the matter, is what I was getting at when I said you were mis-representing the situation.
Grumpynuts has read your article and interpreted it that the Jag is more intrinsically mechanically capable rather than relying on electronic multi-modes. Which is b
ks.grumpynuts said:
This is exactly what is wrong with modern (sports)cars. They have a load of buttons, none of which do what you precisely want, when you want it. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't make it the right thing to do.I applaud Jaguar for building a car which mechanically does what it should. That's precisely what I want in my car, a good mechanical set up with some electronic wizardry up it's sleeve, for when I temporarily run out of brains or talent, to keep me out of the hedge. I don't want a load of buttons which mess up the cars handling, and never seeming to be in the right mode, neither do I want any form of engine or fake exhaust sound piped into the cabin (how utterly naff is that).
ORD said:
You cannot have driven any modern saloon car for some time.
Standard suspension in a 3 Series or C Class is intolerable to anyone with even the slightest interest in or appreciation for dynamics. It's like driving a boat.
I disagree. They're absolute fine for what the car was built for, and offer a better ride. Standard suspension in a 3 Series or C Class is intolerable to anyone with even the slightest interest in or appreciation for dynamics. It's like driving a boat.
I also would argue if you have an appreciation for dynamics, you don't set out to fit sport springs to an entry level diesel saloon car you're going to use for commuting and picking up the kids from school.
ORD said:
I've driven boggo 3ers and C classes a couple of times and wouldn't even consider one with standard suspension. The M-Sport suspension is streets ahead for my needs and wants. I don't know about the harder C class suaoension, but the standard set up is without any engagement or feel.
Do you mean the M-Sport suspension (lower springs and harder dampers), or the Dynamic Suspension (intelligent active suspension)? I don't like the standard suspension in either form, but the dynamic one is fine. Pity it's not a standard feature, because it makes the car drive like you suspect it should.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff