No such Thing as a slow car
Discussion
Sa Calobra said:
Ron99 said:
Indeed they do.
But in most small 1-litre cars 30-50mph in 2nd is about 3500-6000rpm which gets tiresome and still needs an upshift to reach 60mph, plus is awful for NVH and makes you look and sound ridiculous as you leave a 30mph zone.
Such modestly-powered cars might have been fine when roads where quieter and there was room for traffic to move over on dual carriageways to let you in. But nowadays 1-litre cars are out of their depth on roads such as the A11 which has a number of short, curved, uphill slip roads or T-junction joining points.
Try joining the A11 (dual carriageway) North-East-bound from the B1106 Elvedon junction. In a 1-litre town car in 2nd gear you'll be lucky to reach 50mph by the time you have to merge due to the short slip road that's very curved and uphill, made worse because a large hill gives only short visibility of what's coming.
And at busy times, if you have to stop and wait at the junction, even with good launch and gearshift skill and maximum acceleration it'll take about 15s to be going fast enough to stay out of the way of lorries and about 25s to get up to the flowing speed of the cars.
In 2007 I drove an Aygo from Manchester to Germany. I regularly drove a C1 up and down Snake pass and various A and B roads throughout Yorkshire. Yes it has a piddle of torque however I didn't find myself scared in them. But in most small 1-litre cars 30-50mph in 2nd is about 3500-6000rpm which gets tiresome and still needs an upshift to reach 60mph, plus is awful for NVH and makes you look and sound ridiculous as you leave a 30mph zone.
Such modestly-powered cars might have been fine when roads where quieter and there was room for traffic to move over on dual carriageways to let you in. But nowadays 1-litre cars are out of their depth on roads such as the A11 which has a number of short, curved, uphill slip roads or T-junction joining points.
Try joining the A11 (dual carriageway) North-East-bound from the B1106 Elvedon junction. In a 1-litre town car in 2nd gear you'll be lucky to reach 50mph by the time you have to merge due to the short slip road that's very curved and uphill, made worse because a large hill gives only short visibility of what's coming.
And at busy times, if you have to stop and wait at the junction, even with good launch and gearshift skill and maximum acceleration it'll take about 15s to be going fast enough to stay out of the way of lorries and about 25s to get up to the flowing speed of the cars.
I maintain carry speed, learn how to get the best out of your gearbox and engine; what works best at what revs in which gear. If you've built up your revs enough you can easily be in 3rd then 4th just don't drop the revs whilst changing up.
It's alot easier in a 2.0TDI VAG but then there's a reason why long distance drivers/salesmen and taxi drivers use these type of cars. Torque makes it less tiring day in day out. I maintain though no car is slow. Just some are faster than others. You can use your talent to drive any car fast.
Our other 1 litre, a Fiesta Ecoboost can easily deal with lane three cut and thrust.
I drove our old school Fiat 500s on the motorway, now those were really a bit too slow, but you just lurk in lane one and dont get any ideas about overtaking much, it did manage an indicated seventy, just before the nut fell of the clutch cable, and that is my main concern, ropey, unreliable cars on very fast roads, the bloody thing broke down on the entry to the Manchester AIrport runway tunnels, very easy to end up attached to the front of a Cayenne doing 90 mph in that scenario, slow is ok, stopped is very bad !
Ron99 said:
Was that a long time ago when there was plenty of space on the roads and most other cars were slow?
Around town very slow cars are fine because it takes very little power to reach 30mph. However I wonder how many you annoyed because you pulled out of a junction on a NSL single or dual carriageway and forced them to brake.
Or were the fastest vehicles in your area tractors and horses?
I don't remember ever holding anyone up. I do remember having to keep an eye out for the police though. I brake much later and corner much harder than the general population, so that probably helped.Around town very slow cars are fine because it takes very little power to reach 30mph. However I wonder how many you annoyed because you pulled out of a junction on a NSL single or dual carriageway and forced them to brake.
Or were the fastest vehicles in your area tractors and horses?
Edited by Ron99 on Tuesday 22 August 22:31
Ron99 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
You're in something that can hit 60? That's still faster than a lot of the stuff on motorways...
But if there's a long convoy of lorries in lane 1 and you have to contend with a short, uphill, sharply bent slip road (or a T-junction to join a dual carriageway from a standing start in heavy traffic) it can be difficult to get a low-powered car to build enough speed to slot into the sparse gaps between the lorries. The lorries won't move or slow down to make a gap for you to slot in and even if they wanted to they often can't because of the stream of cars flowing past in the next lane.The above is not unusual on the M11, A14 and A11 in the Huntingdon, Cambridge, Thetford and Bishop's Stortford areas.
I drive a small 1-litre town runabout on those roads regularly (I do about 10k per year in a town runabout and 15k in larger faster cars) but joining those fast busy roads is often a chore.
Try being on an autobahn in a 1960s 2cv van with "ear" indicators, high up on the bodysides and barely visible from the rear, approaching a sliproad with a solid stream of stuff coming on at a rate of knots. That's the one and only time I've actually ever felt that I was driving something too slow to be safe... My own fault - we shouldn't have been on the autobahn in the first place. Actually, we weren't even intending to be in Germany, but that's another story...
Kawasicki said:
slow is 20+ seconds to hit 60 mph
I once drove a vw jetta with a 1.6 na diesel, 54 bhp if I remember correctly. It was quick enough for me...something like a 75 bhp fiesta woukd have been a rocketship to me at that time.
That is around where the line lies for me tooI once drove a vw jetta with a 1.6 na diesel, 54 bhp if I remember correctly. It was quick enough for me...something like a 75 bhp fiesta woukd have been a rocketship to me at that time.
My GF has a polo with a 40hp 1.0 lump, the thing is comically slow, but oddly enough still usable, even if i wouldnt want to navigate rush hour traffic near one of the big cities in it.
I also have a suspicion, based on my own observations, that many low-powered cars such as the 1-litre town cars start to run very rich if they're much above 60mph for more than a few minutes.
That's not entirely surprising considering the amount of power needed to keep the car moving at higher speed is not much less than what the engine can provide when cruising in top gear.
That's not entirely surprising considering the amount of power needed to keep the car moving at higher speed is not much less than what the engine can provide when cruising in top gear.
Ron99 said:
I also have a suspicion, based on my own observations, that many low-powered cars such as the 1-litre town cars start to run very rich if they're much above 60mph for more than a few minutes.
That's not entirely surprising considering the amount of power needed to keep the car moving at higher speed is not much less than what the engine can provide when cruising in top gear.
70mph cruise is not exactly hard with 30bhp and the aerodynamics of a barn.That's not entirely surprising considering the amount of power needed to keep the car moving at higher speed is not much less than what the engine can provide when cruising in top gear.
My daily has (or rather had) 49 BHP of NON turbo diesel goodness (190K on the OD, i think it probably has a wee bit less), i manage to get from London to Swansea and back once a month without annoying anyone or feeling "scared" cos it' too slow, been doing that trip monthly for the last 4 years without an issue, yes there are better cars to do it in and fatser (lots and lots of faster cars out there in fact!) but low power is not allways the issue people make it out to be, i meen one tricky slip road does not make the whole country dodgy for low powerd cars, i once got a van stuck in a width restriction, ban all vans!
That small town car probably has a power to weight ratio better than many vans and lorrys on the road, they don't seem to have an issue, a lot of people see low power figures and wince at them without taking into account the weight of the vehical, BHP meens nothing without knowing the weight, what i do if i know there is a particularly steep or short slip road ahead is, pull over and put the back seat down
That small town car probably has a power to weight ratio better than many vans and lorrys on the road, they don't seem to have an issue, a lot of people see low power figures and wince at them without taking into account the weight of the vehical, BHP meens nothing without knowing the weight, what i do if i know there is a particularly steep or short slip road ahead is, pull over and put the back seat down
Edited by S0 What on Thursday 24th August 21:57
Slow cars can be fun - having to maintain momentum and ensure you keep them on the boil...
Until you come across a slower driver and your overtaking opportunities are very few.
Having had fun in a 130bhp MX5 for a couple of years (after running cars with twice the power) I was very glad when I supercharged it.
I'll admit on an open road the standard car was more fun as the supercharger masks mistakes.
Until you come across a slower driver and your overtaking opportunities are very few.
Having had fun in a 130bhp MX5 for a couple of years (after running cars with twice the power) I was very glad when I supercharged it.
I'll admit on an open road the standard car was more fun as the supercharger masks mistakes.
TooMany2cvs said:
70mph cruise is not exactly hard with 30bhp and the aerodynamics of a barn.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.What I'm saying is that a 1-litre car with about 65hp will be doing something like 3400rpm in 5th for 70mph, at which it is probably only capable of putting out about 45hp yet it probably takes 35hp to maintain 70mph on a flat straight with no electrics running, no headwinds and just the driver in the car. Engine load is close to 80% to maintain 70mph in ideal conditions.
As a driver you won't notice the periodic super-rich running of the engine - there will be enough engine response between 80% and 100% to maintain speed up a slight incline - but if you monitor the fuelling you'll see it.
And the extra-rich running won't be doing the engine, cat, or oil any favours.
Therefore on multi-lane roads, small 1-litre cars are underpowered. By my reckoning, to cruise a small town car (VW Up, Hyundai i10, Kia Picanto etc) at 70mph for more than a few minutes you'd be better off with a 1.2-litre engine with about 80hp. Such an engine would also probably improve the 0-60 time to a more perky 12.5s instead of 14s.
Ron99 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
70mph cruise is not exactly hard with 30bhp and the aerodynamics of a barn.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.Ron99 said:
What I'm saying is that a 1-litre car with about 65hp will be doing something like 3400rpm in 5th for 70mph, at which it is probably only capable of putting out about 45hp yet it probably takes 35hp to maintain 70mph on a flat straight with no electrics running, no headwinds and just the driver in the car. Engine load is close to 80% to maintain 70mph in ideal conditions.
As a driver you won't notice the periodic super-rich running of the engine - there will be enough engine response between 80% and 100% to maintain speed up a slight incline - but if you monitor the fuelling you'll see it.
And the extra-rich running won't be doing the engine, cat, or oil any favours.
We put 40k miles on the 1.1 205 we had until last January. 4spd box, 55bhp, carb the size of a thimble. It'd sit at 85 on the m'way, pretty much all day, and would reach 90 if you didn't much care about your hearing. It had 175k on it when we sold it.As a driver you won't notice the periodic super-rich running of the engine - there will be enough engine response between 80% and 100% to maintain speed up a slight incline - but if you monitor the fuelling you'll see it.
And the extra-rich running won't be doing the engine, cat, or oil any favours.
Ron99 said:
Therefore on multi-lane roads, small 1-litre cars are underpowered. By my reckoning, to cruise a small town car (VW Up, Hyundai i10, Kia Picanto etc) at 70mph for more than a few minutes you'd be better off with a 1.2-litre engine with about 80hp. Such an engine would also probably improve the 0-60 time to a more perky 12.5s instead of 14s.
And I'm saying you're talking b
ks.
TooMany2cvs said:
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