RE: Tesla announces P100D upgrades
Discussion
Lowtimer said:
No 1 said:
Do you actually think that there's a direct link between the steering wheel and the linkages that alter the direction in which the wheels point?
Generally a good post but for everyone not driving a tractor with a top speed limited to less than 20 mph, then the answer to that question for every car driver in the UK, including you, is "yes". 
kambites said:
Lowtimer said:
No 1 said:
Do you actually think that there's a direct link between the steering wheel and the linkages that alter the direction in which the wheels point?
Generally a good post but for everyone not driving a tractor with a top speed limited to less than 20 mph, then the answer to that question for every car driver in the UK, including you, is "yes". 98elise said:
I thought there was a legal requirement for a physical link?
A "fail-safe backup" seems to be allowed. In the Infiniti's case I believe (I could be wrong) there's basically a sprung clutch which is disengaged by an electromagnet so if the magnet loses power it re-engages the steering column. They did recently have a recall for a bug in the "steering software" though, which doesn't exactly fill you with confidence (I've no idea what the bug actually was). No 1 said:
Reading some of the vitriol on here towards Tesla, I feel like I should start this post in the way the AA meetings begin: I'm James, and I own a Tesla.
Having got that out of the way, perhaps I can give add my tuppence to the thread. I used to be a huge petrolhead. I wouldn't say that I'm a particularly talented driver when it comes to reaching a car's potential, but I've completed track days in a number of cars and so I know a little about driving fast in a controlled environment. That being said, the cars that I've owned in the past were bought largely down to the sound they made, rather than the way they handled - hence the Griffith rather than an Elise. I first went to test drive a Tesla following a post on PH about the release of the Ludicrous mode. I thought it would be fun to kick the tyres but that 15 minute drive turned my ideas on motoring upside down. The very next day I was walking along Bayswater Road towards Marble Arch when a C class C63 came hooning down there. This car, or rather this engine, had recently been right at the top of my must have list just for the way that it sounds, yet on this day, I thought to myself, 'that's a shame', and I remember feeling a touch of sadness at the same time because I realised that noisy cars are just that, noisy cars. Let me be perfectly clear about it, this is the future of motoring. Whether you like it or not, electric powered cars will become the norm.
My wife took a lot of convincing but we took delivery mid June and have completed just over 7,000 miles since. In that time, there have been several days where I've covered over 300 miles, and one day where we drove from Oxfordshire to Edinburgh. I regularly drive a 200 mile round trip from home to visit clients. So, I can speak from experience when I say that the concerns about range and charging time are simply nonsense. I have a charging point at home, and I have fitted at the office I work from 100 miles away, although I'm only there typically once a week. I have the option of leaving home every morning with a full charge, but I would say that in the 7,000 miles I've driven, I've used less than £100.00 of electricity from home; 80% of my charging is via the Supercharger network.
Although the acceleration is obviously a huge draw of a Tesla, for me it's not the all out pace that impresses, it's the sublime ease with which it delivers that pace. And it's always on. Always. You never have to worry about being in the wrong gear for a sneaky overtake. You never have to worry about turbos spooling up, or getting the revs right to get the maximum torque, because you have 100% of the torque available 100% of the time. I know that DSG boxes can change gear in the blink of an eye now, but they can't change gear as quickly as a car that has no gears. Despite the potential performance it has, I find I spend most of my time now sitting at between 65 and 75mph on the motorway. Not because I'm have range anxiety, but because it's just so effortless cruising at those speeds in such a smooth car; it keeps you away from the those that think that their lives will be so much better if they can just get to their destination 4 minutes faster and it makes motorway driving a far more pleasurable experience, particularly if you use Auto Pilot.
As for Auto Pilot, those that say that they would never trust a computer to drive a car are living in cloud cuckoo land. There are very fews cars on the road now that aren't driven by a computer to a lesser or greater extent. Do you really think that when you press down on the right hand pedal, a cable connected to the linkage on the inlet side of the engine opens the throttle to allow more mixture in? No! Your foot moves a potentiometer which tells the ECU how much pedal input you have made and fuels the engine accordingly. Variable steering anyone? Do you actually think that there's a direct link between the steering wheel and the linkages that alter the direction in which the wheels point?? All Tesla have done is added a little more autonomy to the systems that many cars already have. I raise issue with the name though and I think Co Pilot would be better because ultimately, the driver is still in control of the car, the car is just helping with variable cruise control and some steering. But my goodness does it work? On the motorways, I'd hazard a guess that at least 60% of the time my Tesla is steering itself. Traffic jams on motorways? 100% of the time the car is driving. At just takes the effort out of driving.
I'm not a massive geek when it comes to technology, but I can see the obvious advantages of a car that improves with age through over the air updates. I expected the huge screen to be a distraction and it was a big concern of mine about owning one, but you get so used to it so quickly. I've just come back from Germany where we hired a CLS 350d which one would assume to be a good car. Compared to the Tesla, I might have well been driving my Defender. The "infotainment" system could well be one of the best on the market, but it's not a patch on the touchscreen that one gets in a Tesla. A bit like an iPhone or a Mac, even though it's so different to anything you've used before, you adapt to it immediately because it's so well thought out.
When I picked up the Tesla back in the UK, it was like I'd climbed into a car from the future. Not just because of the touch screen and user interface, but the way it drives. The CLS was no slouch, and if I'm honest, there was probably less road noise from the Merc than the Tesla at the same speed, but it felt so agricultural.
Probably the best feature over the car is its practicality. This might come as a surprise to some given the perceived issues with range, but in terms of space, I've never known a car like it. I'm convinced that there's more storage then my A6 Avant and there's definitely more rear leg room. In addition, there's a flat floor in the rear so no-one has to sit with the legs astride the transmission tunnel. We took the children to Scotland and had a buggy for a 6 month old, a Bumbo seat, a rocker, a travel cot, and all the paraphernalia that goes with having small children, not to mention our own luggage, and it all fitted in the boot under the parcel shelf. I didn't even need to make use of the additional space in the front boot, and there was nothing on the floor behind the front seats.
Some have said that Tesla haven't done anything different. That, in my opinion, is wrong. They have produced a fully electric car which is incredibly practical. The i3, fully electric range - 80 or 100 miles if you drive it steadily. If you add the donkey engine, you might get another 60 miles out of it. I can comfortably get 250 miles out a charge. Less if I drive faster, more if I drive more conservatively, but there isn't a car out there like it.
The i8 might be quicker around a track, but have you seen one? I feel that the i8 is a bit Kim Kardashian where there's nothing underneath so it has to look, let's be polite and use the word, different. The Tesla by comparison is subtle. It doesn't shout "LOOK AT ME, AREN'T I DIFFERENT", instead it's elegant, classy. We all know that Americans can be brash at times, but you could never aim that insult at the Model S.
I don't know Elon Musk, but I do know that he's produced an incredible car. Will his business model work, I don't know, but I certainly hope so because I want to see what's next.
I understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea, and there are those that think that as it's electric it could never have the soul of a car with an engine, but I would wager that those that say that it's not a proper car haven't actually driven one, and therefore, are not in a position to comment. So, before you criticise them further, I would ask you to take one for a test drive, as I did, and see where it takes you.
Excellent post.Having got that out of the way, perhaps I can give add my tuppence to the thread. I used to be a huge petrolhead. I wouldn't say that I'm a particularly talented driver when it comes to reaching a car's potential, but I've completed track days in a number of cars and so I know a little about driving fast in a controlled environment. That being said, the cars that I've owned in the past were bought largely down to the sound they made, rather than the way they handled - hence the Griffith rather than an Elise. I first went to test drive a Tesla following a post on PH about the release of the Ludicrous mode. I thought it would be fun to kick the tyres but that 15 minute drive turned my ideas on motoring upside down. The very next day I was walking along Bayswater Road towards Marble Arch when a C class C63 came hooning down there. This car, or rather this engine, had recently been right at the top of my must have list just for the way that it sounds, yet on this day, I thought to myself, 'that's a shame', and I remember feeling a touch of sadness at the same time because I realised that noisy cars are just that, noisy cars. Let me be perfectly clear about it, this is the future of motoring. Whether you like it or not, electric powered cars will become the norm.
My wife took a lot of convincing but we took delivery mid June and have completed just over 7,000 miles since. In that time, there have been several days where I've covered over 300 miles, and one day where we drove from Oxfordshire to Edinburgh. I regularly drive a 200 mile round trip from home to visit clients. So, I can speak from experience when I say that the concerns about range and charging time are simply nonsense. I have a charging point at home, and I have fitted at the office I work from 100 miles away, although I'm only there typically once a week. I have the option of leaving home every morning with a full charge, but I would say that in the 7,000 miles I've driven, I've used less than £100.00 of electricity from home; 80% of my charging is via the Supercharger network.
Although the acceleration is obviously a huge draw of a Tesla, for me it's not the all out pace that impresses, it's the sublime ease with which it delivers that pace. And it's always on. Always. You never have to worry about being in the wrong gear for a sneaky overtake. You never have to worry about turbos spooling up, or getting the revs right to get the maximum torque, because you have 100% of the torque available 100% of the time. I know that DSG boxes can change gear in the blink of an eye now, but they can't change gear as quickly as a car that has no gears. Despite the potential performance it has, I find I spend most of my time now sitting at between 65 and 75mph on the motorway. Not because I'm have range anxiety, but because it's just so effortless cruising at those speeds in such a smooth car; it keeps you away from the those that think that their lives will be so much better if they can just get to their destination 4 minutes faster and it makes motorway driving a far more pleasurable experience, particularly if you use Auto Pilot.
As for Auto Pilot, those that say that they would never trust a computer to drive a car are living in cloud cuckoo land. There are very fews cars on the road now that aren't driven by a computer to a lesser or greater extent. Do you really think that when you press down on the right hand pedal, a cable connected to the linkage on the inlet side of the engine opens the throttle to allow more mixture in? No! Your foot moves a potentiometer which tells the ECU how much pedal input you have made and fuels the engine accordingly. Variable steering anyone? Do you actually think that there's a direct link between the steering wheel and the linkages that alter the direction in which the wheels point?? All Tesla have done is added a little more autonomy to the systems that many cars already have. I raise issue with the name though and I think Co Pilot would be better because ultimately, the driver is still in control of the car, the car is just helping with variable cruise control and some steering. But my goodness does it work? On the motorways, I'd hazard a guess that at least 60% of the time my Tesla is steering itself. Traffic jams on motorways? 100% of the time the car is driving. At just takes the effort out of driving.
I'm not a massive geek when it comes to technology, but I can see the obvious advantages of a car that improves with age through over the air updates. I expected the huge screen to be a distraction and it was a big concern of mine about owning one, but you get so used to it so quickly. I've just come back from Germany where we hired a CLS 350d which one would assume to be a good car. Compared to the Tesla, I might have well been driving my Defender. The "infotainment" system could well be one of the best on the market, but it's not a patch on the touchscreen that one gets in a Tesla. A bit like an iPhone or a Mac, even though it's so different to anything you've used before, you adapt to it immediately because it's so well thought out.
When I picked up the Tesla back in the UK, it was like I'd climbed into a car from the future. Not just because of the touch screen and user interface, but the way it drives. The CLS was no slouch, and if I'm honest, there was probably less road noise from the Merc than the Tesla at the same speed, but it felt so agricultural.
Probably the best feature over the car is its practicality. This might come as a surprise to some given the perceived issues with range, but in terms of space, I've never known a car like it. I'm convinced that there's more storage then my A6 Avant and there's definitely more rear leg room. In addition, there's a flat floor in the rear so no-one has to sit with the legs astride the transmission tunnel. We took the children to Scotland and had a buggy for a 6 month old, a Bumbo seat, a rocker, a travel cot, and all the paraphernalia that goes with having small children, not to mention our own luggage, and it all fitted in the boot under the parcel shelf. I didn't even need to make use of the additional space in the front boot, and there was nothing on the floor behind the front seats.
Some have said that Tesla haven't done anything different. That, in my opinion, is wrong. They have produced a fully electric car which is incredibly practical. The i3, fully electric range - 80 or 100 miles if you drive it steadily. If you add the donkey engine, you might get another 60 miles out of it. I can comfortably get 250 miles out a charge. Less if I drive faster, more if I drive more conservatively, but there isn't a car out there like it.
The i8 might be quicker around a track, but have you seen one? I feel that the i8 is a bit Kim Kardashian where there's nothing underneath so it has to look, let's be polite and use the word, different. The Tesla by comparison is subtle. It doesn't shout "LOOK AT ME, AREN'T I DIFFERENT", instead it's elegant, classy. We all know that Americans can be brash at times, but you could never aim that insult at the Model S.
I don't know Elon Musk, but I do know that he's produced an incredible car. Will his business model work, I don't know, but I certainly hope so because I want to see what's next.
I understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea, and there are those that think that as it's electric it could never have the soul of a car with an engine, but I would wager that those that say that it's not a proper car haven't actually driven one, and therefore, are not in a position to comment. So, before you criticise them further, I would ask you to take one for a test drive, as I did, and see where it takes you.
I keep time & time again looking at these as a possible replacement for my F10 M5 & try as i might i keep being drawn to them. Took a P90D (with LM) out a few months ago & was blown away, but i have a fortnightly 250 mile each way commute so the borderline range was a worry, however with the arrival of the new P100D this becomes much less of a worry so again i'm drawn.
The only current issue for me is still the lack of noise which really does take some getting used to. I love the growl of V8/V10's & it just un-nerves the senses when driving something so quick that it only emits a whine. Much in the same way when i first tried Scuba Diving & your brain says "i'm human & i can't breathe under water" the same applies to the Tesla in that "i'm a very fast & expensive car but i make no noise". This however i'm sure would become the norm after a few journeys & thus little or no concern, but they're not cheap & a lot of other interesting cars exist in the £100-120k price range.
My decision is still to be made, as my next car will need ordering within the next 8-12 weeks for a March/April delivery, but i really can see a P100D adorning my drive & the 'unusualness' of this car could be enough to secure my business. Also as i get older the idea of virtually zero running costs is a real draw.
.W8PMC said:
i have a fortnightly 250 mile each way commute so the borderline range was a worry, however with the arrival of the new P100D this becomes much less of a worry so again i'm drawn.
Every day, it might become a pain, but once a fortnight, a 250 mile commute really won't be a problem, you just need to plan for it. As the Supercharger network expands, it will get easier and easier. I'm happy to discuss away from the thread if you would like to get some reassurance from an owner.No 1 said:
Every day, it might become a pain, but once a fortnight, a 250 mile commute really won't be a problem, you just need to plan for it. As the Supercharger network expands, it will get easier and easier. I'm happy to discuss away from the thread if you would like to get some reassurance from an owner.
Thanks & i'd definitely like to take you up on that offer given no Tesla area on PH to discuss such things. There is a Supercharger point on my route at Keele services (50 miles into my journey), so could splash & dash there on the way down but my only problem is then where to top up in Suffolk for the return journey without having to go a long way off course. By the time i perhaps acquire one, Tesla may have a few additional Supercharger points so may not become an issue.
W8PMC said:
Thanks & i'd definitely like to take you up on that offer given no Tesla area on PH to discuss such things.
There is a Supercharger point on my route at Keele services (50 miles into my journey), so could splash & dash there on the way down but my only problem is then where to top up in Suffolk for the return journey without having to go a long way off course. By the time i perhaps acquire one, Tesla may have a few additional Supercharger points so may not become an issue.
There's a new Supercharger point at Elvedon (just outside Thetford) if that's any help?There is a Supercharger point on my route at Keele services (50 miles into my journey), so could splash & dash there on the way down but my only problem is then where to top up in Suffolk for the return journey without having to go a long way off course. By the time i perhaps acquire one, Tesla may have a few additional Supercharger points so may not become an issue.
No 1 said:
As for Auto Pilot, those that say that they would never trust a computer to drive a car are living in cloud cuckoo land. There are very fews cars on the road now that aren't driven by a computer to a lesser or greater extent. Do you really think that when you press down on the right hand pedal, a cable connected to the linkage on the inlet side of the engine opens the throttle to allow more mixture in? No! Your foot moves a potentiometer which tells the ECU how much pedal input you have made and fuels the engine accordingly. Variable steering anyone? Do you actually think that there's a direct link between the steering wheel and the linkages that alter the direction in which the wheels point?? All Tesla have done is added a little more autonomy to the systems that many cars already have. I raise issue with the name though and I think Co Pilot would be better because ultimately, the driver is still in control of the car, the car is just helping with variable cruise control and some steering. But my goodness does it work? On the motorways, I'd hazard a guess that at least 60% of the time my Tesla is steering itself. Traffic jams on motorways? 100% of the time the car is driving. At just takes the effort out of driving.
DBW has been proven reliable technology for nearly 20 years, and the throttle plate is still opened against spring resistance, so just like a cable snapping, the plate can only go one way if the motors fail - closed. Electric steering is indeed a direct link between steering column and wheel hubs. Good old fashioned rack & pinion and ye old tie rods are still employed. It's just the assistance is done by a motor instead of hydraulic pressure. Again, old tried and tested technology.
It's just autonomous steering & braking people don't (yet) trust. Watch any video of someone sat behind the wheel of an autonomous car and look where their hands and feet are. Not many can fold their arms and put their feet on the dash, completely relaxed. I reckon their anxiety levels must soar every time a corner approaches and their hands get even closer to the steering wheel. Way more stressful than driving it yourself!
I'm glad you trust yours though, but it'll be a long time before we hit mass acceptance.
I'm just of the opinion it's fixing something that isn't broken. Driving a car is second nature, like taking a dump. You just do it without even thinking about it. I think Tesla are trying to flood the market with too much new tech, too soon. I'm not against innovation, but let's get electric vehicle production cost down first, and somewhere to actually charge the things.....and then we can look at autopilots and funky electric folding doors and stuff.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
It's just autonomous steering & braking people don't (yet) trust. Watch any video of someone sat behind the wheel of an autonomous car and look where their hands and feet are. Not many can fold their arms and put their feet on the dash, completely relaxed. I reckon their anxiety levels must soar every time a corner approaches and their hands get even closer to the steering wheel. Way more stressful than driving it yourself!
I'm glad you trust yours though, but it'll be a long time before we hit mass acceptance.
There's strong fightback against autonomous driving at the moment from a number of areas. I think it was a report from NASA that has said the problem with autonomy in cars v's planes is that in a plane you typically have seconds to take back control when things get confused. In a car they judge the 'safe response time' to be milliseconds, and state that drivers just cannot go from letting the car drive itself to taking back control in sufficient time to avoid accidents. The view is that cars cannot claim to be self driving until they can guarantee that the driver will not be placed in those 'split second' decisions by software. Considering that can happen at every junction, it's a huge barrier for autonomous control.I'm glad you trust yours though, but it'll be a long time before we hit mass acceptance.
Consumer Reports in America has singled out Tesla specifically for over-hyping the autonomous modes in their cars. They're not dissimilar to driver aids in other mainstream cars, such as Volvo and Skoda, but Tesla encourage a belief that they can drive without assistance which is not the case. After the recent tragic accident, rumours are that they'll be cutting back on the autonomous modes in a future update to their cars.
Google has said that traffic lights, four way junctions and road clutter are still significant obstacles to self-driving cars and remain an unsolved problem for now. They're pouring a lot of money into the Google Cars programme, but it remains strictly a research project at the moment.
No doubt it will eventually happen, but the current level of hype and people's faith in ever more powerful computers are perhaps unjustified. We're heading into AI territory here and developers have been promising that artificial intelligence is 'just around the corner' for forty years now.
No 1 said:
I have the option of leaving home every morning with a full charge, but I would say that in the 7,000 miles I've driven, I've used less than £100.00 of electricity from home; 80% of my charging is via the Supercharger network.
I would bloody well hope it is less than £100!- 80% of charging done via the supercharger network, so 20% charging done at home
- 7000 miles in total, so 1400 miles covered from the home-charged electricity
- Assuming it was £100, that would mean it costs 7p/mile in fuel
At £1.12 (average price of a litre of diesel according to google), anyone getting 50mpg is paying about 10.1p/mile in fuel; 35mpg is about 14p/mile.
This means that the extra cost of the Tesla over a similar 5-series/E class segment car is funding the fuel - say you're paying a premium of maybe £15k over a BMW 5 series (base model Tesla is £55,700, 525D Luxury or M Sport is £40,060; the SE is £37,230*). £15k buys you over 103,000 miles worth of diesel at 35mpg (or 206,000 miles of fuel differential, 14p compared to 7p).
Of course, none of this takes into account the respective depreciation of the cars.
*All figures from websites not taking into account discounts or options - BMW are known to discount fairly heavily from list, how do Tesla compare on that?
Tuna said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
It's just autonomous steering & braking people don't (yet) trust. Watch any video of someone sat behind the wheel of an autonomous car and look where their hands and feet are. Not many can fold their arms and put their feet on the dash, completely relaxed. I reckon their anxiety levels must soar every time a corner approaches and their hands get even closer to the steering wheel. Way more stressful than driving it yourself!
I'm glad you trust yours though, but it'll be a long time before we hit mass acceptance.
There's strong fightback against autonomous driving at the moment from a number of areas. I think it was a report from NASA that has said the problem with autonomy in cars v's planes is that in a plane you typically have seconds to take back control when things get confused. In a car they judge the 'safe response time' to be milliseconds, and state that drivers just cannot go from letting the car drive itself to taking back control in sufficient time to avoid accidents. The view is that cars cannot claim to be self driving until they can guarantee that the driver will not be placed in those 'split second' decisions by software. Considering that can happen at every junction, it's a huge barrier for autonomous control.I'm glad you trust yours though, but it'll be a long time before we hit mass acceptance.
Consumer Reports in America has singled out Tesla specifically for over-hyping the autonomous modes in their cars. They're not dissimilar to driver aids in other mainstream cars, such as Volvo and Skoda, but Tesla encourage a belief that they can drive without assistance which is not the case. After the recent tragic accident, rumours are that they'll be cutting back on the autonomous modes in a future update to their cars.
Google has said that traffic lights, four way junctions and road clutter are still significant obstacles to self-driving cars and remain an unsolved problem for now. They're pouring a lot of money into the Google Cars programme, but it remains strictly a research project at the moment.
No doubt it will eventually happen, but the current level of hype and people's faith in ever more powerful computers are perhaps unjustified. We're heading into AI territory here and developers have been promising that artificial intelligence is 'just around the corner' for forty years now.
There are industry standards for Autonomy levels, and no manufacturer is yet producing a level 4 car. The volvo/uber taxis are the nearest thing if they are to be believed, however that was supposed to happen last month but I've not seen anything to say they have gone live yet.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 2nd September 19:06
98elise said:
Its odd that Consumer Reports singles out Tesla, when Tesla have just laid out what it can and cannot do. Mercedes Benz advertises theirs as a self driving car, which it clearly is not.
http://www.consumerreports.org/tesla/tesla-autopilot-too-much-autonomy-too-soon/98elise said:
There are industry standards for Autonomy levels, and no manufacturer is yet producing a level 4 car.
It's true there are industry standards, but most consumers (and most enthusiasts, such as you'd find here) don't know about them. Perhaps more seriously, Tesla seems to have done a lot in the past to muddy the waters here, with some very bold statements and it's own terminology for what its cars do. "Your autopilot has arrived". Before the recent accident I'd said that Tesla advocates didn't appear to understand that the features in the current cars are not any better than those in much derided 'traditional' manufacturers.Tuna said:
98elise said:
Its odd that Consumer Reports singles out Tesla, when Tesla have just laid out what it can and cannot do. Mercedes Benz advertises theirs as a self driving car, which it clearly is not.
http://www.consumerreports.org/tesla/tesla-autopilot-too-much-autonomy-too-soon/98elise said:
There are industry standards for Autonomy levels, and no manufacturer is yet producing a level 4 car.
It's true there are industry standards, but most consumers (and most enthusiasts, such as you'd find here) don't know about them. Perhaps more seriously, Tesla seems to have done a lot in the past to muddy the waters here, with some very bold statements and it's own terminology for what its cars do. "Your autopilot has arrived". Before the recent accident I'd said that Tesla advocates didn't appear to understand that the features in the current cars are not any better than those in much derided 'traditional' manufacturers.Mercedes specifically advertised their system a self drving car, which its clearly not.
98elise said:
From what I remember of the original release from Tesla it explicitly said what the system could or could not do. The only issue I see is the term AutoPilot. Beyond that I've not seen anything from Tesla that sugests its a self driving car.
Mercedes specifically advertised their system a self drving car, which its clearly not.
I don't disagree. Volvo's publicity is also a little opaque in that regard. Telsa's biggest problem is being a high profile business based in the US, with a very outspoken CEO, prone to making bold claims. Lawyers like that sort of thing:Mercedes specifically advertised their system a self drving car, which its clearly not.
http://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-claims-teslas-autopil...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff