RE: Audi TT RS: Review
Discussion
nickfrog said:
AMGJocky said:
Sorry, but when is a 781 Cayman S going to struggle to keep up with a Golf R?! Deary me.
I noticed that too but it's coming from someone who prefers 4wd (nothing wrong with that) and couldn't extract traction out of a RWD. Throttle modulation issues at play I think, which occasionally happens when you're used to a 4wd point and squirt where the throttle can be used as an on/off switch (in all weathers including snow, apparently).I don't care being called a PHDG as no one has explained to me what that was yet !
hufggfg said:
Haha, very fair point, and I'll certainly admit that those cars do in some way "rub me up the wrong way", don't get me wrong, I don't REALLY care, I don't seethe with anger over them. The truth is I just find them a bit disappointing, and thus annoying. These are the cars from a major manufacturer that are most designed to appeal to me, of the whole Audi range, the RS cars are the ones that I'd hope would appeal to my enjoyment of driving, so the fact that they clearly are not designed for feedback, feel, balance etc disappoints me. It's a wasted opportunity.
I would LOVE it if there was an awesome clash of the titans between Cayman S, TTRS, M2 etc etc, where all of them were great to drive with awesome feedback etc, sure all focussing on slightly different things, but all being great fun to drive no matter how hard you push them, but unfortunately that's not the case. If you value feedback, steering feel, balance etc, then the RS cars just don't cut the mustard. They only way they win in the driving enjoyment stakes, is if you love going in a straight line as quickly as possible, which just isn't my thing. In fact, it's the opposite of what I want. I want a car that I get the most enjoyment possible out of, at the lowest possible speed.
I'm don't ideologically hate Audis, I'd love them to produce cars that appeal to what I enjoy about driving. They just don't.
I can see what you are saying, I would class the rs3 and tt rs as very capable, most people will not find enjoyment in that.I would LOVE it if there was an awesome clash of the titans between Cayman S, TTRS, M2 etc etc, where all of them were great to drive with awesome feedback etc, sure all focussing on slightly different things, but all being great fun to drive no matter how hard you push them, but unfortunately that's not the case. If you value feedback, steering feel, balance etc, then the RS cars just don't cut the mustard. They only way they win in the driving enjoyment stakes, is if you love going in a straight line as quickly as possible, which just isn't my thing. In fact, it's the opposite of what I want. I want a car that I get the most enjoyment possible out of, at the lowest possible speed.
I'm don't ideologically hate Audis, I'd love them to produce cars that appeal to what I enjoy about driving. They just don't.
As said here before I thinks it Audi knowing its customers and not wanting to "rock the boat" so to speak.
Every car has its flaws and I think thats what helps people decide between them:
Cayman - dynamically great - engine is a let down
BMW m2 - also dynamically great - interior is a let down
TT RS - very capable, much less polished than the other 2 dynamically however most likely faster in most conditions
I've went from these 2 to a BMW M4, I wouldn't turn around and say the Audis are crap in comparison, I just think the driving experience is a completely different one. Its much easier to make decent progress with the Audis than with BMW and thats what alot of people look for in a car
Rawwr said:
HannsG said:
I can't understand why so many say Audi's are dull?
I am BMW M man myself having owned a few. Are the RS versions really 'dull'? whats missing?
It's very hard to say because handling, character and personality are either immeasurable or unquantifiable. I am BMW M man myself having owned a few. Are the RS versions really 'dull'? whats missing?
I don't think Audis are 'bad' cars, not by any stretch of the imagination but having driven a few S and RS cars, there just seems to be something missing, leaving me feeling a bit disconnected from it all. Obviously, I haven't driven every S and RS variant so it's more than possible that some are better than others but I'll never forget my first drive in an RS4; I knew it would go around the corner very quickly indeed but I couldn't feel it doing it.
Imagine if you lost all sensation in your penis. You know you've got it deep inside her because you're happily pounding away and she's pulling lots of amusing faces and making horrendous squawking sounds. You'll know when you've finished because there's post-tsunami levels of spunk and gash-juice to clear up. All in all it was a job well done but... you didn't feel it. That's been my experience of fast Audis.
I may have drifted off point a little there.
The RS is good at what it does... And it has it's loyal fans. They love that it's bloody fast, 0-60, 30-70 etc.. mod it and they'll quote even smaller acceleration times and how they can spank literally any other car out there. The numbers really matter to a high %age. So it doesn't handle as well as a Boxster. They don't care. What's important to them is all there. It's effective and that is enough.
Others are not bothered about the sledgehammer, the bare numbers. They prefer the finesse, the feedback, the feel of being involved.
It always amuses me that the Audi guys think the RWD guys derived their fun from going sideways everywhere. Thinks like Caymans and BMW's literally spin of the road at the first rain drop on an even the slightest deviation from what is a straight road.
My Cayman feels great, in a way that my TTS and RS's I have driven, could never feel and that has nothing to do with speed for the sake of it. There is no wrong though. We just subscribe to different philosophies, different approaches to performance car enjoyment.
HighwayStar said:
It always amuses me that the Audi guys think the RWD guys derived their fun from going sideways everywhere. Thinks like Caymans and BMW's literally spin of the road at the first rain drop on an even the slightest deviation from what is a straight road.
That's an interesting point and I'll go further and say that I don't believe I've driven a RWD car on the road which doesn't naturally err towards understeer when first when pushed. Quite a bold statement but they all feel engineered towards natural understeer. Naturally, if forced or shocked into it, they'll oversteer but the nature of them is the opposite.AMGJocky said:
nickfrog said:
AMGJocky said:
Sorry, but when is a 781 Cayman S going to struggle to keep up with a Golf R?! Deary me.
I noticed that too but it's coming from someone who prefers 4wd (nothing wrong with that) and couldn't extract traction out of a RWD. Throttle modulation issues at play I think, which occasionally happens when you're used to a 4wd point and squirt where the throttle can be used as an on/off switch (in all weathers including snow, apparently).I don't care being called a PHDG as no one has explained to me what that was yet !
Infact, not all cars are equal, a controversial point, but that's why some people enjoy the "giant killing" potential of a fast hatch.
My analogy is fake boobs and real ones...
They can look nice, sort of look real, but underneath the top, they don't look quite right or feel right... Same applies here with the FWD/Haldex numb cars and feelsome dynamically superior cars. I know what i prefer.
Edited by Atmospheric on Wednesday 14th September 21:02
AMGJocky said:
Shame really, the F10 M5 won't struggle with traction if piloted properly! The Cayman and Golf R should never be compared, on any planet.
On a hot summers day perhaps but I live in Scotland where I would say a minimum of 250 of the 365 days in a year the roads are cold/damp or soaking wet. 250 days minimum where you wouldn't dare dream of accelerating hard in 1st or 2nd gear in an M5 with 600hp. After 3 months, an engine failure and then a subsequent gearbox issue on its return, I managed to reject the car. My first rear wheel drive experience was not great.It's not just about feathering the throttle in a powerful rear wheel drive car, it's the feeling that the electronics aren't giving you the full whack in 1st or 2nd, you can feel the 'hold back'
You will only understand what I mean by being familiar with Audi Quattro, S-Tronic/DSG/PDK launch control and low end traction. Even rolling from 5mph 1st gear, RS6 vs M5, the RS6 would get around a cruise ship length ahead of the M5 before 100% of the M5's power went down onto the tarmac.
As for Cayman vs Golf R, the same applies, the Golf R has tremendous traction and a 5mph side by side on a cold damp Octobers morning and the Golf will be half way down the road before the Cayman has full traction. On a drag strip side by side, the Golf R will post a quicker time 100%, I see it month in month out at my local dragstrip. The Golf R market is saturated in a modified cars, I think it's safe to presume that at least 50% of Golf R's you encounter on the road will be software tuned, majority of these approaching 400hp. Due to the 987 Cayman being N/A, I'd estimate less than 5% of Cayman 987's to be modified to increase power. The new 718 Cayman at least has forced induction so the option for increasing the power is there but something tells me that most 718 Cayman's will remain standard still.
4wd with a dedicated launch control feature in a 1500kg car with 300-400hp are all the ingredients you need to achieve 60 in the 3's, 100's in the 8's and 1/4m times in the 11's. Take out the 4wd from that list of ingredients and the times dip substantially. You may get the odd rwd car launching well with its launch control feature but conditions have to be at optimum, engine over the back and with super sticky tyres and a bit of luck you may achieve 4 out of 10 good launches. Hop into a Golf R though, you'll achieve 10/10 good launches.
Launch control, dragstrip racing, not real world I hear you say? Well the same could be said about Nurburgring lap times or how many G's you can pull in a drift around a blind B road bend.
Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 15th September 09:03
Rawwr said:
But some people don't find any of that important. No interest in the traffic light grands prix, no interest in Nurburgring times and no worry that the person behind me, in front of me or to the side of me has more power. Some just like to enjoy driving.
I'm Spartacus! There is always someone in a faster car than you. Good for them. Live and let live. In my humble experience the most fun is to be found alone in a car which you can balance on the edge as you thread through a series of bends in undulating countryside at speeds which would be considered naughty rather than ban-worthy. I had a lowly Clio 1.2 16v with 75bhp once which took a huge amount of effort to keep moving but which rewarded with four wheel drifts if you got it right. I've since nudged towards 300bhp with a couple of cars (Boxster S, Mustang V8, 330i) and whilst impressive they've not always been as much fun.
Edited by Hitch on Thursday 15th September 09:09
Leo-RS said:
AMGJocky said:
Shame really, the F10 M5 won't struggle with traction if piloted properly! The Cayman and Golf R should never be compared, on any planet.
On a hot summers day perhaps but I live in Scotland where I would say a minimum of 250 of the 365 days in a year the roads are cold/damp or soaking wet. 250 days minimum where you wouldn't dare dream of accelerating hard in 1st or 2nd gear in an M5 with 600hp.It's not just about feathering the throttle in a powerful rear wheel drive car, it's the feeling that the electronics aren't giving you the full whack in 1st or 2nd, you can feel the 'hold back'
You will only understand what I mean by being familiar with Audi Quattro, S-Tronic/DSG/PDK launch control and low end traction. Even rolling from 5mph 1st gear, RS6 vs M5, the RS6 would get around a cruise ship length ahead of the M5 before 100% of the M5's power went down onto the tarmac.
As for Cayman vs Golf R, the same applies, the Golf R has tremendous traction and a 5mph side by side on a cold damp Octobers morning and the Golf will be half way down the road before the Cayman has full traction. On a drag strip side by side, the Golf R will post a quicker time 100%, I see it month in month out at my local dragstrip. The Golf R market is saturated in a modified cars, I think it's safe to presume that at least 50% of Golf R's you encounter on the road will be software tuned, majority of these approaching 400hp. Due to the 987 Cayman being N/A, I'd estimate less than 5% of Cayman 987's to be modified to increase power. The new 718 Cayman at least has forced induction so the option for increasing the power is there but something tells me that most 718 Cayman's will remain standard still.
4wd with a dedicated launch control feature in a 1500kg car with 300-400hp are all the ingredients you need to achieve 60 in the 3's, 100's in the 8's and 1/4m times in the 11's. Take out the 4wd from that list of ingredients and the times dip substantially. You may get the odd rwd car launching well with its launch control feature but conditions have to be at optimum, engine over the back and with super sticky tyres and a bit of luck you may achieve 4 out of 10 good launches. Hop into a Golf R though, you'll achieve 10/10 good launches.
Launch control, dragstrip racing, not real world I hear you say? Well the same could be said about Nurburgring lap times or how many G's you can pull in a drift around a blind B road bend.
Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 15th September 08:48
Of course the RS is more that just the bold figure and I'm not saying what is important to you actually isn't. It just shows that within the realms of performance cars, enthusiasts and this forum our driving pleasures, what we like and the cars we get it from are not the same. There is no wrong or right, just what we as individuals like.
Leo-RS said:
AMGJocky said:
Shame really, the F10 M5 won't struggle with traction if piloted properly! The Cayman and Golf R should never be compared, on any planet.
On a hot summers day perhaps but I live in Scotland where I would say a minimum of 250 of the 365 days in a year the roads are cold/damp or soaking wet. 250 days minimum where you wouldn't dare dream of accelerating hard in 1st or 2nd gear in an M5 with 600hp. After 3 months, an engine failure and then a subsequent gearbox issue on its return, I managed to reject the car. My first rear wheel drive experience was not great.It's not just about feathering the throttle in a powerful rear wheel drive car, it's the feeling that the electronics aren't giving you the full whack in 1st or 2nd, you can feel the 'hold back'
You will only understand what I mean by being familiar with Audi Quattro, S-Tronic/DSG/PDK launch control and low end traction. Even rolling from 5mph 1st gear, RS6 vs M5, the RS6 would get around a cruise ship length ahead of the M5 before 100% of the M5's power went down onto the tarmac.
As for Cayman vs Golf R, the same applies, the Golf R has tremendous traction and a 5mph side by side on a cold damp Octobers morning and the Golf will be half way down the road before the Cayman has full traction. On a drag strip side by side, the Golf R will post a quicker time 100%, I see it month in month out at my local dragstrip. The Golf R market is saturated in a modified cars, I think it's safe to presume that at least 50% of Golf R's you encounter on the road will be software tuned, majority of these approaching 400hp. Due to the 987 Cayman being N/A, I'd estimate less than 5% of Cayman 987's to be modified to increase power. The new 718 Cayman at least has forced induction so the option for increasing the power is there but something tells me that most 718 Cayman's will remain standard still.
4wd with a dedicated launch control feature in a 1500kg car with 300-400hp are all the ingredients you need to achieve 60 in the 3's, 100's in the 8's and 1/4m times in the 11's. Take out the 4wd from that list of ingredients and the times dip substantially. You may get the odd rwd car launching well with its launch control feature but conditions have to be at optimum, engine over the back and with super sticky tyres and a bit of luck you may achieve 4 out of 10 good launches. Hop into a Golf R though, you'll achieve 10/10 good launches.
Launch control, dragstrip racing, not real world I hear you say? Well the same could be said about Nurburgring lap times or how many G's you can pull in a drift around a blind B road bend.
Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 15th September 09:03
I'm sure if I come up against a TTRS at some point, then they would outrun me in a straight line. On track would be a different matter, particularly against my stereotypical view of those who would buy this car.
Edited by AMGJocky on Thursday 15th September 10:31
AMGJocky said:
Leo-RS said:
AMGJocky said:
Shame really, the F10 M5 won't struggle with traction if piloted properly! The Cayman and Golf R should never be compared, on any planet.
On a hot summers day perhaps but I live in Scotland where I would say a minimum of 250 of the 365 days in a year the roads are cold/damp or soaking wet. 250 days minimum where you wouldn't dare dream of accelerating hard in 1st or 2nd gear in an M5 with 600hp. After 3 months, an engine failure and then a subsequent gearbox issue on its return, I managed to reject the car. My first rear wheel drive experience was not great.It's not just about feathering the throttle in a powerful rear wheel drive car, it's the feeling that the electronics aren't giving you the full whack in 1st or 2nd, you can feel the 'hold back'
You will only understand what I mean by being familiar with Audi Quattro, S-Tronic/DSG/PDK launch control and low end traction. Even rolling from 5mph 1st gear, RS6 vs M5, the RS6 would get around a cruise ship length ahead of the M5 before 100% of the M5's power went down onto the tarmac.
As for Cayman vs Golf R, the same applies, the Golf R has tremendous traction and a 5mph side by side on a cold damp Octobers morning and the Golf will be half way down the road before the Cayman has full traction. On a drag strip side by side, the Golf R will post a quicker time 100%, I see it month in month out at my local dragstrip. The Golf R market is saturated in a modified cars, I think it's safe to presume that at least 50% of Golf R's you encounter on the road will be software tuned, majority of these approaching 400hp. Due to the 987 Cayman being N/A, I'd estimate less than 5% of Cayman 987's to be modified to increase power. The new 718 Cayman at least has forced induction so the option for increasing the power is there but something tells me that most 718 Cayman's will remain standard still.
4wd with a dedicated launch control feature in a 1500kg car with 300-400hp are all the ingredients you need to achieve 60 in the 3's, 100's in the 8's and 1/4m times in the 11's. Take out the 4wd from that list of ingredients and the times dip substantially. You may get the odd rwd car launching well with its launch control feature but conditions have to be at optimum, engine over the back and with super sticky tyres and a bit of luck you may achieve 4 out of 10 good launches. Hop into a Golf R though, you'll achieve 10/10 good launches.
Launch control, dragstrip racing, not real world I hear you say? Well the same could be said about Nurburgring lap times or how many G's you can pull in a drift around a blind B road bend.
Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 15th September 09:03
Leins said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
generally they push on at the limit (which is safe), which shows up on jurno tests on tracks
1) most owners never drive at 10/10ths on the road
2) if your driving at 7/10ths in a modern RS/AMG/M on the road you are looking at a 2 year ban because you will easily be going double the speed limit+
The problem with the TT is do you view it as a sports car in which case it should be engaging and precise to drive (which it wont be) or as a GT Coupe in which case it is probably fine
Also if you need to prove the size of your epeen to everyone else on the road you can chip it to 500bhp and use launch control everywhere, which it will also be fine for (until it breaks an audi void the warranty)
Do you notice much difference in handling between the newer Haldex cars and your older TorSen ones Dave?1) most owners never drive at 10/10ths on the road
2) if your driving at 7/10ths in a modern RS/AMG/M on the road you are looking at a 2 year ban because you will easily be going double the speed limit+
The problem with the TT is do you view it as a sports car in which case it should be engaging and precise to drive (which it wont be) or as a GT Coupe in which case it is probably fine
Also if you need to prove the size of your epeen to everyone else on the road you can chip it to 500bhp and use launch control everywhere, which it will also be fine for (until it breaks an audi void the warranty)
i prefer it to just about all of audi's quattro variants up to the RS6 (which spins it wheels easily but that's probably more down to the power lol)
the only variants that where noticeably better IMO in road use where the RS4 with the sports diff option and the R8
AMGJocky said:
I'm sure if I come up against a TTRS at some point, then they would outrun me in a straight line. On track would be a different matter, particularly against my stereotypical view of those who would buy this car.
Why would someone buy a TTRS for track work? Never understood this "argument", if I wanted to joust with someone on the track I'd buy a Caterham etc.Edited by AMGJocky on Thursday 15th September 10:31
TX.
Terminator X said:
AMGJocky said:
I'm sure if I come up against a TTRS at some point, then they would outrun me in a straight line. On track would be a different matter, particularly against my stereotypical view of those who would buy this car.
Why would someone buy a TTRS for track work? Never understood this "argument", if I wanted to joust with someone on the track I'd buy a Caterham etc.Edited by AMGJocky on Thursday 15th September 10:31
TX.
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