Tuning box long term?

[exiged]

These have obviously come on a long way now with the addition of the 3rd channel for rpm sense.

Im not looking to start a box vs remap debate, but anyone have any long term reviews of the twin/tri channel boxes?, any issues with the car?.

The car id be putting it on is a year old so everything in pretty good shape. Im looking at the tri channel box from dtuk.

[r11co]

As you say, they have come on a long way from the 'resistor in a box' (better get that in first before some ignorant wag dismisses them all as such).

Multi-channel devices that intercept ECU signals and replace them with alternative values are doing exactly same job as a remap (without the 'hard' changes to the ECU parameters) rather than just fooling the ECU into throwing more fuel at the engine by fiddling with the fuel-pressure sensor output.

The best types connect to boost sensor and each individual fuel injector as well as RPM sensing. Not cheap, but they have a resale value compared to a remap which is lost with the car and often devalues it.

[nunpuncher]

The DTUK boxes are well regarded on the Golf R forum. They obviously don't achieve quite the same level as a proper remap from an accomplished tuner but the DTUK box avoids the TD1 flag that comes with a proper remap resulting in warranty issues.

[OldGermanHeaps]

Even though the tuning boxes can receive many signals they can only really influence one parameter, rail pressure. They can't influence start of injection timing, injection duration, boost, egr, drivers wish, torque limiters, regens, smoke limits etc. Still a blunt instrument, and higher fuel pressure puts more strain on the fuel system. The tuning box supplying falsified data to the ecu removes a lot of the safety limits and checks, esp calibration, fuel computer readings, variable service calculations etc. From the driving seat tuning boxes feel good, but they aren't healthy long term. I used them in my company cars but i'd never buy a car that i suspected had one on at some point.

[r11co]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Even though the tuning boxes can receive many signals they can only really influence one parameter, rail pressure.

No they don't. Did you actually read what I posted? More sophisticated boxes are connected to each injector individually and can control injector timing and duration. Those that adjust boost pressure work in exactly the same way as those tuning companies who produce modified boost sensors as drop-in replacements.

OldGermanHeaps said:

The tuning box supplying falsified data to the ecu removes a lot of the safety limits and checks, esp calibration, fuel computer readings, variable service calculations etc.

The above is total horsest, and is an accusation that more accurately be directed at certain remapping practices. If you knew how tuning boxes worked you would know that a lot of what you say above is impossible to do from outwith the ECU. The only thing you have said that is remotely true is that fuel computer readings can be thrown out, but considering most of them are either woefully optimistic or pessimistic anyway that is hardly a deal-breaker

But by all means repeat outdated shill information from a limited perspective.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 21st September 12:52

[OldGermanHeaps]

Get your attitude in check you lippy wee fudd. Doyou speak like that to the face of everyone you disagree with?

[liner33]

I had one on my diesel Merc for a couple of years added a large amount of torque but little peak horsepower , however it made the car much nicer to drive

I'm considering a DTUK box for my Octavia TSI, fitting is a bit of a faff though and requires a ramp really

[r11co]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Get your attitude in check you lippy wee fudd. Doyou speak like that to the face of everyone you disagree with?

I'm not disagreeing with you - I am pointing out what a lot of ste you are peddling as fact.

Ironic is it not that, for example, AC Scnitzer now supply multi-channel tuning boxes as approved BMW upgrades that can be fitted without voiding warranties?

Things have clearly moved on since you formed your opinions and last researched the subject.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 21st September 12:56

[OldGermanHeaps]

Do tuning boxes alter sensor readings before passing them back to the ecu?
Does the dtuk box being asked about here drive the injectors directly as you say or does it just connect to the rail pressure sensor, map sensor and crank sensor?
Why are you getting so angry and argumentative over a black box with wires coming out of it? Or do you have a vested interest?

[r11co]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Does the dtuk box being asked about here drive the injectors directly as you say or does it just connect to the rail pressure sensor, map sensor and crank sensor?

You generalised about tuning boxes saying "they can only really influence one parameter, rail pressure. They can't influence start of injection timing, injection duration". That was the point I was countering. It is patently untrue.

I was advising the OP to look for boxes that do have such capability, but be prepared to pay more for them.

Now you want to discuss the specifics of the box in question - fine, knock yourself out. If it isn't up to scratch then the OP will be better informed, but details matter and you were wrong to say that all boxes are pretty much the same.

Very wrong.

[OldGermanHeaps]

What you describe is a piggyback ecu, not what is commonly referred to as a tuning box and not the type the op was referring to.
Why are you getting so worked up about it?
Which device do you recommend?
Do you agree or disagree that tuning boxes that only alter sensor readings have the downsides i mention? I never said dont do it, i just pointed out why in my opinion it has many downsides if you are keeping a car long term. Short term tuning boxes are awesome, just get shot before borkage gets expensive.
I never once said they are all the same. Even with 1 channel devices there are huge differences from resistor in a box, to op amp with trimmable gain slope to a pic based system with a basic map to all singing all dancing microprocessor controlled devices with carefully customised code. Similar limitations to what they can and cant acheive though

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Wednesday 21st September 13:36

[r11co]

OldGermanHeaps said:

What you describe is a piggyback ecu, not what is commonly referred to as a tuning box and not the type the op was referring to.

Again, not necessarily true. The first proper tuning boxes for PD turbo diesel cars connected to diesel injectors through a single multiplug.

The boxes you describe populate the cheaper end of the market for common-rail fuelling systems because it was an easy job to connect one lead to the rail pressure sensor than run a loom to each injector. Some of these single-point CR boxes can be made to work reasonably well if they are microprocessor controlled (so-called 'digital boxes') rather than just applying a fixed offset to a sensor output (so-called 'analogue boxes') but will give conservative results if ran to safe levels. Bigger gains can be achieved with CR boxes but usually at the expense of fuel-pump longevity as the pressures are higher than the pump is rated for. Controlling the injectors avoids this as the pump never runs beyond standard specs, which is why such boxes are better, safer, but more epensive to manufacture.

OldGermanHeaps said:

Why are you getting so worked up about it?

Because there is a whole pile of misinformation out there, some of which you were regurgitating with no context. There is a range of devices from 'resistors in a box' to full piggyback ECUs that get referred to as 'tuning boxes' by the people who make and sell them, and it is wholly unhelpful to generalise about them.

Some of them are rubbish (RIAB), some are OK, some are good enough to receive manufacturer's approval.

FWIW, IMO the DTUK boxes fall into the 'better than OK' category.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 21st September 20:16

[Ozzie Osmond]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Short term tuning boxes are awesome, just get shot before borkage gets expensive.

Precisely. Great way to destroy a car.

[OldGermanHeaps]

R11co, again, which box do you recommend?
Also, 1 year old car probably has modern esp which takes a calculated actual and requested torque value from ecu over the canbus and sends back requests to limit torque output back to ecu to maintain traction along with applying individual brakes plus any other witchcraft, be aware tuning boxes increase torque above what the ecu thinks the engine is actually generating, this can cause the esp to be less effective, and can cause limp mode on spirited driving if you take it too far, regardless of the quality of the tuning box. Many remaps have this limitation too, just making you aware.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Wednesday 21st September 14:34

[caelite]

Ozzie Osmond said:

OldGermanHeaps said:

Short term tuning boxes are awesome, just get shot before borkage gets expensive.

Precisely. Great way to destroy a car.

It depends entirely on the aggresivness of the tune, quality of fuel & state of the stock tune.

Some engines I wouldnt NOT tune for the UK, older VAG stuff being one. More recently with Euro emissions we are losing this but many engines are designed with one tune to work EVERYWHERE. So that 130bhp 1.9TDI on clean UK diesel in 25C heat in the peak of summer is designed to run on African diesel thats 30% water and 20% goat piss across the Sahara with an air filter full of sand in 45C heat. Ok maybe that scenario is a bit extreme but my point being is the UK has rather favourable conditions for ICE engines and many remaps and tuning kits allow engine tunes to reflect that.

Realistically with a small tune stock clutches are going to be fine but you are most likely going to half there life (many are designed to work in excess of 100k miles). Turbo's are the same and are put under a bit more stress. Asides from those 2 items most other expensive components are unaffected unless you aggresively tune (then you start bending engine internals which is bad). Issues may arise if you try to run the engine on goat piss fuel AFTER mapping it for our high quality fuels though.

[DanQyou]

I had a 1.2 TSI 86 Fabia with a TMC tuning box. It was on for about 16 months until I sold the car and didn't cause any damage. The hp output was around 110-120 on setting '7' and my mpg did increase by a few, would imagine due to the additional low down TQ.

Still have the box just waiting to get another car I can use with it

Thanks
Dan

[DottyMR2]

I'd not be using a tuning box, I'd either do it properly with a remap or new standalone ECU or not at all.

Probably best to do your own research OP, this is clearly a touchy subject! You'll get both sides of the fence on PH. Helps to know details fo the one you are looking at though, as OGH said, they can range from a resistor in a box up to fancier bits of kit with processors in them.

Edited by DottyMR2 on Wednesday 21st September 17:09

[r11co]

OldGermanHeaps said:

R11co, again, which box do you recommend?

Considering the OP hasn't mentioned the specific car, it would be senseless to recommend anything at this point, but equally senseless to dismiss his choice out of hand.

OldGermanHeaps said:

Also, 1 year old car probably has modern esp which takes a calculated actual and requested torque value from ecu over the canbus and sends back requests to limit torque output back to ecu to maintain traction along with applying individual brakes plus any other witchcraft, be aware tuning boxes increase torque above what the ecu thinks the engine is actually generating, this can cause the esp to be less effective, and can cause limp mode on spirited driving if you take it too far, regardless of the quality of the tuning box. Many remaps have this limitation too, just making you aware.

That just re-inforces the point. Without knowing the car an informed choice cannot be made, but as you admit the above issue applies to tuning in general and is not limited to add-on devices.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 21st September 17:02

[nottyash]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Even though the tuning boxes can receive many signals they can only really influence one parameter, rail pressure. They can't influence start of injection timing, injection duration, boost, egr, drivers wish, torque limiters, regens, smoke limits etc. Still a blunt instrument, and higher fuel pressure puts more strain on the fuel system. The tuning box supplying falsified data to the ecu removes a lot of the safety limits and checks, esp calibration, fuel computer readings, variable service calculations etc. From the driving seat tuning boxes feel good, but they aren't healthy long term. I used them in my company cars but i'd never buy a car that i suspected had one on at some point.

Exactly. If you look on the Golf R website forums there's loads of people on there leasing them and sticking these boxes on.
Long term, well I certainly wouldn't want to buy a secondhand Golf R.
When and if my new one arrives it will be going to a remapper with a tried, tested developed map and only after the warranty has expired.

[chrismc1977]

Had a twin channel DTUK box on our mk7 GTD.

Couldn't fault the gains but it made the power delivery a bit rough & ready just as it started to increase boost/fuelling at 1800rpm

Very audible diesel clatter etc etc

Final straw was the repeated limp modes ( from boost PX sensor reading overboost) despite the box being on a mild setting......

Now sold on