SORN invalidates insurance?!
Discussion
MDMA . said:
motco said:
I have two SORNed cars in my garage and both are insured - one has no MoT. How would I get it to the test station without insurance? I cannot tax it without MoT and cannot drive it to the test centre without insurance cover but can do so without tax.
agree. think someone at Admiral is getting confused. as I have stated above, friend had insurance for over 5 years on a car on axle stands with no MOT or VED.
motco said:
I have two SORNed cars in my garage and both are insured - one has no MoT. How would I get it to the test station without insurance? I cannot tax it without MoT and cannot drive it to the test centre without insurance cover but can do so without tax.
That's a very good point. Should his MOT lapse while in storage he couldn't then unsorn the car and therefore cannot get it an MOT station. A trailer would be required which is nuts!krisdelta said:
There is still insurable risk around theft / fire - but everything else may be deemed "surplus" while it's SORN. Generous of Admiral to charge £40 - if T&C's have not been breached, I'd question the validity of their fee. It seems very OTT to cancel for such minuate.
It may be worth your Dad chatting to Locktons or Hiscox who are far more geared up to non-standard risk profiles - and higher value cars.
Perhaps you should "take one for the team" and look after your Dad's car over the winter? It's what family is all about
You'd be surprised how grippy they are in the cold once you've warmed the tyres through.
Kris,It may be worth your Dad chatting to Locktons or Hiscox who are far more geared up to non-standard risk profiles - and higher value cars.
Perhaps you should "take one for the team" and look after your Dad's car over the winter? It's what family is all about
You'd be surprised how grippy they are in the cold once you've warmed the tyres through. Edited by krisdelta on Monday 31st October 14:07
We're actually with Locktons for a number of our other cars and this is one of the few that isn't.
I would very happily have the car stay for the winter but i'm already fully 'stocked' for cars so garage space is at a premium. The manual is also obviously the better gearbox that AM so for use in the snow.
cowboyengineer said:
Can I just ask how people go about finding a storage company. Where do they look?
In our instance I knew of it already but i'll bet a quick Google of 'car storage' and your area will pull up some options.I can make a recommendation for a North East Scottish storage business however.
There's no reason, in principle, why you can't insure a car which is SORNed. Insurance is an yearly contract and the fact that you might not be driving it for a few months of that year is neither here nor there - when you take out an annual policy you are not promising that you are going to drive your car on all 365 days of that year. If you want to SORN it on some of the days that you're not driving it that's up to you - ity doesn't mean that you cease to have any insurable interest in the.
In fact, if the car is SORNed then you cannot (legally) re-tax it until AFTER you have insured it - so you have no choice but to have it insured and SORNed simultaneously, for a short time at least.
I suppose if for some reason Admiral don't want to insure SORNed cars then in principle they're free to put a clause in the policy which says something like "You must keep your car taxed at all times". However as there doesn't appear to be any such clause in the policy I'd be inclined to make a formal complaint about their handling of this, especially if it has cost your dad money (eg they have charged him a cancellation fee, or they haven't given him a full pro-rata refund). I suspect that the bloke on the phone was new and may have, ahem, mis-spoken.
On a general point if you want to insure a car which is not being used on the road you can get a fire and theft only policy (Google "SORN insurance" or "laid up insurance" which is often considerably cheaper than a standard policy (even TPF&T). As the name implies it covers you against fire and theft, but not anything to do with road accidents. As it doesn't cover third party liabilities it doesn't count as insurance for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act, so the car has to be stored off-road and SORNed while insured by a policy like that.
In fact, if the car is SORNed then you cannot (legally) re-tax it until AFTER you have insured it - so you have no choice but to have it insured and SORNed simultaneously, for a short time at least.
I suppose if for some reason Admiral don't want to insure SORNed cars then in principle they're free to put a clause in the policy which says something like "You must keep your car taxed at all times". However as there doesn't appear to be any such clause in the policy I'd be inclined to make a formal complaint about their handling of this, especially if it has cost your dad money (eg they have charged him a cancellation fee, or they haven't given him a full pro-rata refund). I suspect that the bloke on the phone was new and may have, ahem, mis-spoken.
On a general point if you want to insure a car which is not being used on the road you can get a fire and theft only policy (Google "SORN insurance" or "laid up insurance" which is often considerably cheaper than a standard policy (even TPF&T). As the name implies it covers you against fire and theft, but not anything to do with road accidents. As it doesn't cover third party liabilities it doesn't count as insurance for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act, so the car has to be stored off-road and SORNed while insured by a policy like that.
Aretnap said:
There's no reason, in principle, why you can't insure a car which is SORNed. Insurance is a yearly contract and the fact that you might not be driving it for a few months of that year is neither here nor there - when you take out an annual policy you are not promising that you are going to drive your car on all 365 days of that year.
Maybe, but you will usually have told the insurer what the car is used for and an approximate annual mileage. if you're not actually using the car at all you cannot properly be earning "no claims discount".James B said:
They cancelled his policy on the spot as they state that to SORN a car in the UK invalidates insurance as the car must be taxed to be legal to drive on the road and by SORN'ing it he has invalidated his insurance.
Admiral advise they cannot sell him insurance for the purpose of storage (not even TPF&T) as there is no insurable risk if he cannot drive it.
They are wrong on both these points:Admiral advise they cannot sell him insurance for the purpose of storage (not even TPF&T) as there is no insurable risk if he cannot drive it.
- a car does not have to be taxed to be driven on the road (our well-known situation of getting to/from a pre-booked MOT, among other situations I am sure);
- as someone has already pointed out, there is insurable interest: fire, theft and material damage. Many (admittedly not all) companies will provide Accidental Damage, Fire and Theft (ADF&T) or 'Laid Up' cover.
Soooo... my tvr is SORN, with no MOT and insured with Admiral (on a multi-car policy). Should I be calling them to find out I'm not actually insured? I could see them wanting to change the policy if I changed the risk address (my drive at my house) to some other location (random lock-up somewhere). But otherwise, it sounds like balls to me 
Admiral is talking rubbish. My Corvette was insured with them. When I transferred the car physically to the dealer who was selling it on my behalf the dealer advised me to SORN it as it would be driven on trade plates only. I spoke to Admiral, informed them it was SORNed but the insurance was still needed. No problem, insurance was not affected in the slightest.
MDMA . said:
agree. think someone at Admiral is getting confused. as I have stated above, friend had insurance for over 5 years on a car on axle stands with no MOT or VED.
Agree, it seems like an over-zealous young or inexperienced insurance clerk. I've met a few of these on the phone (not with Admiral).So many in the industry don't seem to understand it. Sure, you have to be legal for the policy to pay out, but does a normal policy cover you for driving on a non-public road? Yes it does, well most of them do anyway. If they didn't, then would they pay out if something untoward happened as you turned off the road into your shared driveway?
James B said:
Hi all,
My father has just put his V12V into storage for the winter and decided it would be worth taking advantage of the simplified car tax system to SORN the car and offset the cost of storage.
Dutifully he called his insurers, Admiral, to advise them of the car's new home for the winter and in the call he mentioned the car was SORN'd as of today. They cancelled his policy on the spot as they state that to SORN a car in the UK invalidates insurance as the car must be taxed to be legal to drive on the road and by SORN'ing it he has invalidated his insurance.
Now, the car is fully insured by the storage business he's using but being a prudent fellow he thought having his own insurance would still be sensible. Admiral advise they cannot sell him insurance for the purpose of storage (not even TPF&T) as there is no insurable risk if he cannot drive it.
I can see their point to some degree but there must surely be some people who SORN the car on their driveway etc that must fall foul of this?
Would be interested to hear other's comments.
Cheers
James
Surely if a vehicle is being SORN`ed the owner is declaring to the DVLA (and an insurance company for that matter) that the vehicle will be taken OFF the road. My father has just put his V12V into storage for the winter and decided it would be worth taking advantage of the simplified car tax system to SORN the car and offset the cost of storage.
Dutifully he called his insurers, Admiral, to advise them of the car's new home for the winter and in the call he mentioned the car was SORN'd as of today. They cancelled his policy on the spot as they state that to SORN a car in the UK invalidates insurance as the car must be taxed to be legal to drive on the road and by SORN'ing it he has invalidated his insurance.
Now, the car is fully insured by the storage business he's using but being a prudent fellow he thought having his own insurance would still be sensible. Admiral advise they cannot sell him insurance for the purpose of storage (not even TPF&T) as there is no insurable risk if he cannot drive it.
I can see their point to some degree but there must surely be some people who SORN the car on their driveway etc that must fall foul of this?
Would be interested to hear other's comments.
Cheers
James
Does this mean that the insurance company suspends insurance on the vehicle every time it is in a garage for servicing, or having a fault rectified, Perhaps they think the driver should continue driving with faulty brakes, or steering to ensure his insurance cover stays in place, since it will be suspended if he takes it off the road to have such faults rectified?
MDMA . said:
seems a new one on me. friend had his 328 GTB laid up for years in his garage. was SORN but he insured it for fire + theft only every year. they were more than happy to take his money knowing the car would never be used on the road.
I suspect your mate had his fire & theft coverage via a 'classic' insurance policy which will still do specific 'laid-up' insurance for classic cars etc.Everyday insurance companies like Admiral etc will not do 'specialist' insurance coverage, i.e off road policies etc., and so putting on SORN will invalidate insurance.
I've already come across this, when I put my Harley on SORN early this year, "we don't off road or fire & theft only policies anymore sir"
It's all to do with the computerisation of DVLA records and insurance.
For old school 'off-road' cover call a specialist broker and talk to a human that understands what you want.
As said, I used to have 'laid up' cover with Footman James for my Sunbeam-Lotus.
Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 1st November 13:03
dacouch said:
I can never understand why people insure super cars with Admiral, they are the Ryan Air of Car Insurance
Agree, it's utterly bizarre. People spend fortunes on these cars, put only the best oil in it, buy expensive cleaning products, fit the best tyres, have it services by specialists, yet when it comes to insurance, they go with a bargain basement garbage insurer like Admiral with substandard cover and punitive policy wordings. With call centres staffed by untrained kids who, as this case clearly shows, don't know anything about the product they are selling. aeropilot said:
Everyday insurance companies like Admiral etc will not do 'specialist' insurance coverage, i.e off road policies etc., and so putting on SORN will invalidate insurance.
I've already come across this, when I put my Harley on SORN early this year, "we don't off road or fire & theft only policies anymore sir"
Lovely, an' all. But you weren't asking for that. You wanted your normal road-risks policy to continue, except the actual road risks would be zero for a period. That benefits THEM.I've already come across this, when I put my Harley on SORN early this year, "we don't off road or fire & theft only policies anymore sir"
Simply - unless the Ts & Cs say explicitly that SORNing invalidates the policy, then it doesn't. And Admiral's don't.
This is obviously with challenging, because a car must be insured to be taxed, not the other way around.
As an aside, if this storage joint is broken in to or burns down some Saturday night, who pays for your fathers V12 Vantage? Who does your father claim against? Does he hire his own solicitor to pursue the insurer of the storage facility? Does he have a copy of the policy certificate? What if the place isn't actually insured at all? What if it's burned down as an insurance job for a failing business and the director does a runner? Your dad will be stood with his proverbial dick in his hand.
To not have his own cover for a V12 Vantage would be madness, so no, Admiral do not have a point at all. Admiral have the right to insure up to a certain milage each year, but if your father insures the car for 10,000 miles per annum and actually drives 1,000 miles because it was parked up on SORN for 10 months, that is none of Admiral's business providing they have insured for the address the car was normally parked up during the term of the policy.
As an aside, if this storage joint is broken in to or burns down some Saturday night, who pays for your fathers V12 Vantage? Who does your father claim against? Does he hire his own solicitor to pursue the insurer of the storage facility? Does he have a copy of the policy certificate? What if the place isn't actually insured at all? What if it's burned down as an insurance job for a failing business and the director does a runner? Your dad will be stood with his proverbial dick in his hand.
To not have his own cover for a V12 Vantage would be madness, so no, Admiral do not have a point at all. Admiral have the right to insure up to a certain milage each year, but if your father insures the car for 10,000 miles per annum and actually drives 1,000 miles because it was parked up on SORN for 10 months, that is none of Admiral's business providing they have insured for the address the car was normally parked up during the term of the policy.
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