RE: Porsche 718 Boxster: Review
Discussion
anonymous said:
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I'm not.I take your point that you are not using "is toast" to signify a commercial demise. seems a hyperbolic term to use therefore but we're not here for an English lesson.
You are, I think, treading the fairly well worn path on PH that Porsche is no longer as an attractive proposition to those who value "drivers cars". I may be wrong again but there's also a degree of underlying scornin the fact that some people might want to specify options on their car which don't meet the criteria or approval of those who value "drivers' cars". It's my view, and it is indeed just one person's, that Porsche runs a pretty smart model which allows buyers to configure their cars as sharply or sparsely, or luxuriously, or over endowed, or garishly etc etc as they like. An unadulterated 718 is still, in my view an absolute performance bargain and very much aligned to traditional Porsche values.
I uspect that ultimately we disagree that the brand is eroding such that only GT series cars or similar appeal to people who class themselves as "drivers" whatever that may mean.
RSK21 said:
You are, I think, treading the fairly well worn path on PH that Porsche is no longer as an attractive proposition to those who value "drivers cars".
I uspect that ultimately we disagree that the brand is eroding such that only GT series cars or similar appeal to people who class themselves as "drivers" whatever that may mean.
Could always trade up from that ageing Boxster to a Lotus if he prefers to deal with company that's not very good at selling cars. I uspect that ultimately we disagree that the brand is eroding such that only GT series cars or similar appeal to people who class themselves as "drivers" whatever that may mean.
Ozzie Osmond said:
RSK21 said:
You are, I think, treading the fairly well worn path on PH that Porsche is no longer as an attractive proposition to those who value "drivers cars".
I uspect that ultimately we disagree that the brand is eroding such that only GT series cars or similar appeal to people who class themselves as "drivers" whatever that may mean.
Could always trade up from that ageing Boxster to a Lotus if he prefers to deal with company that's not very good at selling cars. I uspect that ultimately we disagree that the brand is eroding such that only GT series cars or similar appeal to people who class themselves as "drivers" whatever that may mean.
anonymous said:
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Ref hyperbole we'll have to agree to disagree - The words "Porsche is toast" sound a bit extreme to me.My comment ref busines model is nothing to do with whether either of us does or doesn't think they are a commercial success - we've agreed that you didn't mean "toast" in that way and we both think they know how to make a few quid so that's that.
The point I then made was that if you want a relatively basic Porsche with minimum driver aids, luxury extras and a manual gearbox you can still have one, if you want the kitchen sink you can have that too. When the core product is still very good indeed than I think that's a good way to sell cars for more than commercial reasons.
As for the fine line you mention interest is lost by whom ? Are you actually saying that the base product in and of itself and devoid of extras is now no longer interesting to a certain type of buyer ? What is it specifically about the 718 cars that makes you feel that way ?
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 12th November 13:02
I think I agree with the sentiment the majority of Boxster customers are not even going to notice the change in engine note - we genuine petrolheads rarely buy brand new cars, we certainly don't buy enough to make someone like Porsche continue building a mainstream model with us in mind.
I think a four cylinder engine can work in a sports car, I have an Elise 111R with the manic Toyota 2ZZ in it, the cam-changeover is delicious. However, would it work in a Boxster? Not really, the Porker is far too heavy for the little Toyota, which doesn't have an apparent torque deficiency when it's only got 860kg + driver to lug around. Also it's no longer a viable engine anyway. A shame.
Even Honda have abandoned their screamers, which is a great shame. We should probably congratulate Porsche really, at least the GT cars seem one of the few places to buy a high-revving NA engine. Just a shame they've become so elitist with their sales policy.
I think a four cylinder engine can work in a sports car, I have an Elise 111R with the manic Toyota 2ZZ in it, the cam-changeover is delicious. However, would it work in a Boxster? Not really, the Porker is far too heavy for the little Toyota, which doesn't have an apparent torque deficiency when it's only got 860kg + driver to lug around. Also it's no longer a viable engine anyway. A shame.
Even Honda have abandoned their screamers, which is a great shame. We should probably congratulate Porsche really, at least the GT cars seem one of the few places to buy a high-revving NA engine. Just a shame they've become so elitist with their sales policy.
I'm sure in a couple of generations Porsche will get this car sorted...
I think people miss (what I consider to be) the point of sports cars sometimes - they exist to make you feel good, and to make you feel like you have something special. The engine is a huge part of that... When you started an older Cayman you knew you were starting one of the best 6's (and therefore on of the best engines) on the planet. When you reversed a Cayman out of your garage, or out of your driveway, it was an event - especially so with a manual. I think these turbo 4s miss that whole side of the enjoyment.
So it's fast and can work the chassis more - that's 5% of the time you're in the car. The other 95% you're just making 6/10ths progress, or moving in traffic, or cruising on a motorway - a special engine sets these cars apart from the run-of-the-mill. It's not about the flat out, or even quite quick performance, it's about the ownership!
There's nothing wrong with 4 cylinders, but there's something terribly wrong with the current crop of 4 cylinder turbos. I really hope Porsche step up and do something different!
I think people miss (what I consider to be) the point of sports cars sometimes - they exist to make you feel good, and to make you feel like you have something special. The engine is a huge part of that... When you started an older Cayman you knew you were starting one of the best 6's (and therefore on of the best engines) on the planet. When you reversed a Cayman out of your garage, or out of your driveway, it was an event - especially so with a manual. I think these turbo 4s miss that whole side of the enjoyment.
So it's fast and can work the chassis more - that's 5% of the time you're in the car. The other 95% you're just making 6/10ths progress, or moving in traffic, or cruising on a motorway - a special engine sets these cars apart from the run-of-the-mill. It's not about the flat out, or even quite quick performance, it's about the ownership!
There's nothing wrong with 4 cylinders, but there's something terribly wrong with the current crop of 4 cylinder turbos. I really hope Porsche step up and do something different!
Ozzie Osmond said:
jayemm89 said:
we genuine petrolheads.....
Just because you can't afford a new car doesn't mean you're some kind of automotive saint.jayemm89 said:
Not how that was intended to be read, the point is that very few people buying new cars are genuine petrolheads, including those buying Boxsters. It's a "lifestyle" choice for many, rather than a thing to be enjoyed in and of itself.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Most people I talk to who drive Boxster/Cayman are knowledgeable and enthusiastic about them. This might of course be because I only really see and engage with such people at car meets etc
That said every time I've been to PEC I see Boxster/Cayman owners enjoying themselves and having fun just as much as I do 911 owners, I also often hear from people there that they are on the second, third and so on and they buy them because of how they make them feel I.e. they enjoy driving them.
The poor old Boxster/Cayman does attract an awful lot of snobbery and bizarrely it sometimes seems to come from those who drive them as well as those who don't.
RSK21 said:
Most people I talk to who drive Boxster/Cayman are knowledgeable and enthusiastic about them. This might of course be because I only really see and engage with such people at car meets etc
This certainly isn't my experience. I don't think anything more mainstream than a Caterham is bought primarily by petrolheads. Of the people I know personally whove bought Boxsters new, I'd say only one would describe himself as a car enthusiast.I wouldn't be surprised if the number of "enthusiasts" driving Boxsters/Caymans is actually a higher percentage than those driving 911s. I know a lot of people "aspire" to own a 911, for some just owning a Porsche is enough. But, there will always be those who simply buy it for the badge and nothing else. This isn't new - the 944/928 etc were tarnished with the image of the loud city boy in the 1980s
The last Boxster I personally drove was a 981, non-S, had the hideous RED RED RED RED colour scheme inside, black outside... not many options, but it had BOSE and the sports exhaust. God, I loved that car. Colour scheme not to my taste but for something to just "enjoy", I loved it. Unfortunately, a key part of it for me, like many, was the soundtrack - hence the current generation do nothing for me.
The last Boxster I personally drove was a 981, non-S, had the hideous RED RED RED RED colour scheme inside, black outside... not many options, but it had BOSE and the sports exhaust. God, I loved that car. Colour scheme not to my taste but for something to just "enjoy", I loved it. Unfortunately, a key part of it for me, like many, was the soundtrack - hence the current generation do nothing for me.
kambites said:
This certainly isn't my experience. I don't think anything more mainstream than a Caterham is bought primarily by petrolheads. Of the people I know personally whove bought Boxsters new, I'd say only one would describe himself as a car enthusiast.
Ok so now we are deep deep into the realms of the subjective and what makes a petrolhead !Of course every PHer is significantly more Petrolheaded than the next person
RSK21 said:
kambites said:
This certainly isn't my experience. I don't think anything more mainstream than a Caterham is bought primarily by petrolheads. Of the people I know personally whove bought Boxsters new, I'd say only one would describe himself as a car enthusiast.
Ok so now we are deep deep into the realms of the subjective and what makes a petrolhead !Of course every PHer is significantly more Petrolheaded than the next person
jayemm89 said:
At the end of the day, let's face it, they're a business. If Boxster sales suddenly halved and all Porsche's dealers came back saying their customers miss the old NA engine, Porsche would find a way to make it work.
Indeed, but they wont, so they wont. If there's one thing Porsche have proven time and time again it's that they're good at producing what the market is willing to pay a premium for. anonymous said:
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As I said "which I read as a sweeping statement". Maybe I should have said "which you then helped me clarify" ? I also said I''m interested in what you think and I say this as a fellow Porsche owner.I''m sure you're a nice chap but for some reason you don't want to engage in a conversation and seem to feel somewhat affronted.
I give up !
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 12th November 15:56
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There really is nothing passive aggressive about thinking you're a nice chap. I genuinely believe you are, as frankly are most people in life.I''m very happy to talk about the cars so back to my questions - for whom is the Cayster becoming less interesting and do you think that even the unadulterated car no longer appeals to a legacy audience ? I'll add another one, what do you think these disillusioned folk will buy instead ?
kambites said:
Indeed, but they wont, so they wont. If there's one thing Porsche have proven time and time again it's that they're good at producing what the market is willing to pay a premium for.
Welcome to Porsche-world. As you can see, some participants here are as tedious as the weapons grade driving-gods over at Lotus! Some of us seem to be able to enjoy great cars without needing to ride a high horse at the same time. I'm interested in your observation about Porsche selling at a premium. Are they really that expensive when you look at the direct competition? It seems to me the base cars highly competent and very competitively priced - to the extent I doubt there's very much margin on them. But yes, a lot of buyers will spec' up the price by 20% or more. Personally I never cease to be astounded just how much cash some buyers are willing to splash on upgrades. I'd simply buy a different car if I wanted to spend that sort of money.
One of the big Porsche-myths is that Boxster/Cayman buyers "couldn't afford a 911". My own experience has been that quite a few Boxster/Cayman buyers (oops, I nearly said enthusiasts...) choose the mid-engine car because they love the mid-engine chassis.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
So forget the medium/long term extinction of the automobile what would Porsche need to do to make you (and I''m assuming you are one of the no longer interested fraternity) interested in a 718 ? Is it a straightforward n/a vs Turbo issue ? Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 12th November 16:22
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