RE: Audi TT RS vs. 718 Cayman S vs. F-Type S Coupe
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
TooMany2cvs said:
leglessAlex said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Nors said:
different engine (not available in any VW product).
Yeh, it's totally unrelated to the decade-old, same-capacity-same-bore-same-stroke 20v five pot in US-spec Golfs and Passats. Of course it is.Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Nors said:
Apart from the 10V 5cyl staight 5 in the very old Passat (late 70's/early 80's)that had the same engine as the Type 43 Audi 100, I can't think of another VW 5Cyl that wasn't a V5, not in-line 5 like the Audi. That engine was butchered/derived from the VR6 I think.
Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Here's a clue, in case you didn't actually bother reading the earlier posts...Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Not every VAG engine is available in this one relatively small market.
And, in case that was still a bit subtle... you're forgetting a rather large country of 300+m people the other side of a large bit of water from us. A country where 2.5 straight fives, with exactly the same bore and stroke as this, were sold in Golfs and Passats for nearly a decade.
TooMany2cvs said:
Nors said:
Apart from the 10V 5cyl staight 5 in the very old Passat (late 70's/early 80's)that had the same engine as the Type 43 Audi 100, I can't think of another VW 5Cyl that wasn't a V5, not in-line 5 like the Audi. That engine was butchered/derived from the VR6 I think.
Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Here's a clue, in case you didn't actually bother reading the earlier posts...Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Not every VAG engine is available in this one relatively small market.
And, in case that was still a bit subtle... you're forgetting a rather large country of 300+m people the other side of a large bit of water from us. A country where 2.5 straight fives, with exactly the same bore and stroke as this, were sold in Golfs and Passats for nearly a decade.
Nors said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Nors said:
Apart from the 10V 5cyl staight 5 in the very old Passat (late 70's/early 80's)that had the same engine as the Type 43 Audi 100, I can't think of another VW 5Cyl that wasn't a V5, not in-line 5 like the Audi. That engine was butchered/derived from the VR6 I think.
Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Here's a clue, in case you didn't actually bother reading the earlier posts...Totally different design other than same amount of cylinders!! Your argument is a bit like saying the Porsche has an in-line 4 pot engine so must be the same design as a Ford 4 pot in line from a Mondeo!
Anyway, my original statement was based on the fact you can't get the TTRS engine in a Golf. So not so much a Golf in a frock.
Not every VAG engine is available in this one relatively small market.
And, in case that was still a bit subtle... you're forgetting a rather large country of 300+m people the other side of a large bit of water from us. A country where 2.5 straight fives, with exactly the same bore and stroke as this, were sold in Golfs and Passats for nearly a decade.
It's a group engine design, also used in Golfs and Passats. No more than that.
Dave Hedgehog said:
B10 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
B10 said:
The UK press for decades has been anti UK epitomised by Clarkson etc.. It is about time we were a bit more pro-UK manufacturing. I work in UK manufacturing and have had to endure lies and nonsense about UK manufacturing for decades despite it being 8th largest in the world.
All 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
clarkson anti uk manufacturing? this video is probably the best thing old TG didAll 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmcmqTAu6b8
languagetimothy said:
Bottom line for me is that I unless you're going to track day them (I wouldn't if they were mine) they are going to spend
Most of their lives sitting in traffic or the occasional blat avoiding speed cameras so would never got anywhere near
Their full potential, so all the comparative performance figures perhaps become irrelevant. And even a load of bull.
Just get car you like the look of inside and out and give it the occasional blast. Cayman for me btw.
" oh no but it's a 4cyl turbo not a flat six".... get over yourself!
This... I have a flat 6 Cayman but if a friend, work colleague or neighbour said he was getting any of the 3 in question I know he'd love them.Most of their lives sitting in traffic or the occasional blat avoiding speed cameras so would never got anywhere near
Their full potential, so all the comparative performance figures perhaps become irrelevant. And even a load of bull.
Just get car you like the look of inside and out and give it the occasional blast. Cayman for me btw.
" oh no but it's a 4cyl turbo not a flat six".... get over yourself!
Someone coming to a sports/sporty/GT car (call them what you like) for the 1st time would think any one was amazing.
languagetimothy said:
Bottom line for me is that I unless you're going to track day them (I wouldn't if they were mine) they are going to spend
Most of their lives sitting in traffic or the occasional blat avoiding speed cameras so would never got anywhere near
Their full potential, so all the comparative performance figures perhaps become irrelevant. And even a load of bull.
Just get car you like the look of inside and out and give it the occasional blast. Cayman for me btw.
" oh no but it's a 4cyl turbo not a flat six".... get over yourself!
Not a chance - for me the powertrain is the heart of a car, and is more important even than chassis ability / steering feel. A turbo'd I4 is automotive beige, performance-wise, and is a real turn-off.Most of their lives sitting in traffic or the occasional blat avoiding speed cameras so would never got anywhere near
Their full potential, so all the comparative performance figures perhaps become irrelevant. And even a load of bull.
Just get car you like the look of inside and out and give it the occasional blast. Cayman for me btw.
" oh no but it's a 4cyl turbo not a flat six".... get over yourself!
...and as you say above, if you're not going to realise the full potential of a car then you may as well get reward from the rest of the package...there's no benefit in a torquey, anonymous engine that delivers a ton of performance but no excitement.
av185 said:
The reason why the GT4 was not available with PDK option is not simply because it would tend to spoil the back to basics' ethos and fun factor but also because it would then be quicker than the 911 Carrera and Carrera S.
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As I said, Porsche have deliberately restricted the GT4s performance by fitting a slightly detuned Carrera S 3.8 engine.....otherwise being lighter than the Carrera it would be quicker....a no no for the 911 premium branding.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Just read the comparisons-absolutely spot on. Tested all of them came to the same conclusion. Value for money and the track cum retro driving experience the Jag F type coupe did it for me.Will look to buy one/two year old in the new year. Porsche was effortless...the Audi so much like a glammed up Golf... so wanted something with a little more wow for the bucks that kicked arse when in the mood!
havoc said:
renrut said:
Does anyone know how heavy an f type s is? Everyone accuses it of being lardy but are we talking 100kg or 300kg more? None of them are that lightweight being 2 seaters that weight more than most family cars.
Real kerb-weight of an F-Type (any flavour) is >1,700kg. V8's are c. 1,800kg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_F-Type
So a V6 is 300kg more than the (similarly-practical) Porsche, and close to 300kg more than the TT.
B10 said:
The standard V6 Jag (non S) is £51,775.00, so very similar to the other two in pricing.
It would be good to have a road test with the non S V6 version and the other competitors without ANY options. Sadly I think the press cannot control what the manufacturers supply.
Except it would be too slow in the real-world - that's why it doesn't get supplied. 340bhp 2-seater and it can still only manage 200bhp/tonne*...less than a number of recent hot hatches...and less than the non-S 718 Cayman!It would be good to have a road test with the non S V6 version and the other competitors without ANY options. Sadly I think the press cannot control what the manufacturers supply.
I also thought it interesting that the article talks about £60k as a price-point then supplies a car costing £72k with selected options, >£10k more than the two competitors. Or alternatively, at the base-price of ~£50k the article chose to ignore the directly-comparable F-Type V6 and went with bigger brother...
* I actually think 200bhp/tonne, in the right car, is enough power for public roads. Sadly probably not when that car weighs 1,700kg and behaves accordingly...and not when you're paying >£60k for the privilege...
It is also perfectly clear that 98%+ of the posts are written by people who've never driven a Porsche of any variety and therefore have no idea what sets them apart as a drivers car as well as an engineering exercise and as for not using the potential, have these people never driven on a single carriageway A road? It isn't about the top speed (that's just bragging rights), it's how quick it'll get from 40 to 68(!) that counts...and if some eejit pulls out without looking in their mirror and forces you to pop the off-side wheels onto wet mud a traction control system that allows you full control to carry on accelerating hard without throwing a hissy-fit and killing the torque (and you) is something the Porsche has and that MB owners can only dream of...
As for the "I'd rather have an Elise/Evora/Exige/Ex-bath-tub/anything else from Lotus" brigade; you won't have to worry about driving around in something that smells like a plastics factory every time you turn the heater on as the chances are that either the heater won't actually work or you'll be stood next to the car waiting for recovery because the rest of it isn't working or both!
There...that's better...
Edited by T5Andy on Friday 2nd December 02:39
Edited by T5Andy on Friday 2nd December 02:41
Edited by T5Andy on Friday 2nd December 02:55
Does anyone actually think that anybody but a select few buy these cars because they've read a review and they've seen the statistics so they drive past the Jag dealer thinking 'nah that's too heavy' or they drive past one of the others for whatever objective reason?
These things are completely heart over head. Aside from the actual financing involved. If you want an F-Type then you literally won't care one iota that it's probably a lot heavier than it should be. Jaguar knows that, the people buying them know that, meanwhile car nerds on forums that nobody takes any notice of complain about then.
These things are completely heart over head. Aside from the actual financing involved. If you want an F-Type then you literally won't care one iota that it's probably a lot heavier than it should be. Jaguar knows that, the people buying them know that, meanwhile car nerds on forums that nobody takes any notice of complain about then.
This comparison is something the Cayman would walk previously. The introduction of the 4 cylinder engine allows the others to gain an emotional advantage which to some people outweighs the dynamic supreriority of the Porsche.
Would the same conclusion be reached if the Pork had 6 cylinders?
However you look at it there is dilution here. And that's before, as others are rightly stating, you throw Lotus into the equation. As a 981 buyer I discounted the Evora without hesitation, making the same decision now the 718 would suffer the same fate.
Would the same conclusion be reached if the Pork had 6 cylinders?
However you look at it there is dilution here. And that's before, as others are rightly stating, you throw Lotus into the equation. As a 981 buyer I discounted the Evora without hesitation, making the same decision now the 718 would suffer the same fate.
languagetimothy said:
Tsandy said is also perfectly clear that 98%+ of the posts are written by people who've never driven a Porsche of any variety and therefore have no idea what sets them apart as a drivers car as well as an engineering exercise and as for not using the potential, have these people never driven on a single carriageway A road? It isn't about the top speed (that's just bragging rights), it's how quick it'll get from 40 to 68(!
Yep this .i said about "potential" I agree that it's the handling, how it puts that power down and the traction at high cornering speeds, acceleration in the mid range out of twisty bits etc., my '06 Cayman of course had no LSD and you could feel it going and off it want for a bit then the traction control would kick in, so could keep the foot in and add a bit of steering tweaking. But I think your right that a lot of folks won't get near this type of driving on the road. Being a powerfully built director type with, in the past, quite a few seasons of FFord, tin tops and a bit of karting, even so, I still didn't push it as hard as I wld on the track but still surprised I have my licence following very exciting A and B road early Sunday jaunts. This is what I meant by potential, unless you are going track speeds thou corners often the car can handle it even if the driver can't, so get the car that you like and is pretty good at most speeds and suits your everyday real life usage. 0.3 sec diffs or a few kgs here or there, top speeds... pah! As you say that's just bragging rights or top trumps.
Maybe I'm weird, but a car that puts a lot of power down without any fuss bores me to tears. One of the few ways I find I can get pleasure from a sporty car on a road whilst maintaining a margin for error is by enjoying seeing how far I can push the car accelerating out of corners. It's the reason why AWD performance cars hold no appeal whatsoever to me. I actively like that my cars need care on the throttle accelerating out of bends. What I like about my cars is the way they put their power down. Porsche and Audi Quattro drivers would find them too lairy though.Yep this .i said about "potential" I agree that it's the handling, how it puts that power down and the traction at high cornering speeds, acceleration in the mid range out of twisty bits etc., my '06 Cayman of course had no LSD and you could feel it going and off it want for a bit then the traction control would kick in, so could keep the foot in and add a bit of steering tweaking. But I think your right that a lot of folks won't get near this type of driving on the road. Being a powerfully built director type with, in the past, quite a few seasons of FFord, tin tops and a bit of karting, even so, I still didn't push it as hard as I wld on the track but still surprised I have my licence following very exciting A and B road early Sunday jaunts. This is what I meant by potential, unless you are going track speeds thou corners often the car can handle it even if the driver can't, so get the car that you like and is pretty good at most speeds and suits your everyday real life usage. 0.3 sec diffs or a few kgs here or there, top speeds... pah! As you say that's just bragging rights or top trumps.
Eh? Never seen Chris Harris demonstrate the many and various ways a 911 responds to throttle applications mid-corner? Just about the most throttle adjustable car I've ever driven. Nothing remotely similar to an AWD Audi!
I agree with your main point, though - a car that always simply hooks up and goes is fast but not necessarily very exciting.
I would put more emphasis on things like steering and chassis feel than tail out silliness, though. The road is not the place for that, whereas you can appreciate good steering everywhere and all the time. The same goes for a nice engine.
The 718 has zero attracting to me simply because it has a shopping car engine.
I agree with your main point, though - a car that always simply hooks up and goes is fast but not necessarily very exciting.
I would put more emphasis on things like steering and chassis feel than tail out silliness, though. The road is not the place for that, whereas you can appreciate good steering everywhere and all the time. The same goes for a nice engine.
The 718 has zero attracting to me simply because it has a shopping car engine.
I'd like... ...none of the above. What a waste of money they all are.
You can easily have more fun, only marginally less speed (& still plenty for real roads), much more steering feel, far better soundtrack, no worse real-world fuel consumption, for half the money or less.
Just get the equivalent car from about 5-10 years ago, then look after it. Simples.
You can easily have more fun, only marginally less speed (& still plenty for real roads), much more steering feel, far better soundtrack, no worse real-world fuel consumption, for half the money or less.
Just get the equivalent car from about 5-10 years ago, then look after it. Simples.
I see the typically soporific and ungainly Audi emerging as the clear favourite for the permatanned hairdresser/salon/owner whilst the outdated and overweight Jag will inevitably be the prime choice for the aspiring raspberry coloured chino clad polo shirt wearing golf club wannabees both of which would never be interested in a car for its driving dynamics.
Without being stereotypical, of course.:
Leaving the Porsche as a clear winner from a driving perspective. (Is this still PH?).
Whilst the new 4 pot turbo clearly provides reasonable performance, there are reservations about this somewhat characterless engine so the smart money would probably buy a late last of the line normally aspirated flat 6 GTS 981 Cayman the prices of which as expected have hardened even into winter following the introduction of the 718. This car could well provide depreciation proof motoring in the short term at least.
Without being stereotypical, of course.
:Leaving the Porsche as a clear winner from a driving perspective. (Is this still PH?).
Whilst the new 4 pot turbo clearly provides reasonable performance, there are reservations about this somewhat characterless engine so the smart money would probably buy a late last of the line normally aspirated flat 6 GTS 981 Cayman the prices of which as expected have hardened even into winter following the introduction of the 718. This car could well provide depreciation proof motoring in the short term at least.
Edited by av185 on Friday 2nd December 14:54
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