RE: Audi TT RS vs. 718 Cayman S vs. F-Type S Coupe
Discussion
akadk said:
ORD said:
F-Types come in at over 1700kg and sometimes well over 1800kg. Utterly embarrassing for a 2 seater.
until you own one for a year and it turns out to be the best car you have ever owned ...Olivera said:
havoc said:
Trouble is, Jag are well known for 'massaging' the official figures. Have been for a while now, but the UK press turn a blind eye as Jag are a British success story.
A couple of US magazines (i.e. independent assessors not JLR's own published figures) have stuck them on scales and they're actually coming out >1,700kg. Oh, and we were comparing vs the Cayman-S (correct price-point for the V6, just about) not the 911, so it IS 300kg.
Sorry to disappoint, but facts are troublesome things...
Um no, you're 'facts' are anything but - although I do concede the F-type is too heavy compared to the opposition.A couple of US magazines (i.e. independent assessors not JLR's own published figures) have stuck them on scales and they're actually coming out >1,700kg. Oh, and we were comparing vs the Cayman-S (correct price-point for the V6, just about) not the 911, so it IS 300kg.
Sorry to disappoint, but facts are troublesome things...
It's well known that all manufacturers (not just Jaguar) manipulate weight figures.
Anyway, the listed unladen weight (EC) figures for a PDK Cayman S (similar power/gearbox to F-type S) are 1,460 kg. SO that's a 134kg difference, again not 300kg. So that's 69kg difference versus equivalent 911, 134kg difference to equivalent Cayman.
They don't have the same issue when weighing a Porsche.
All this crying about weight. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't actually matter. People use it as a yardstick for "engineering quality" or something but normally excess weight comes down to development budget limitations, having to carry-over bits of other platforms or use inefficient materials to save cost etc.
Does it actually matter? Is the car too slow? Is it's cornering behaviour unacceptable? Does it scrub speed poorly under braking? If the performance is acceptable then who cares? All you can say is that it will use up tyres and brakes faster but that's hardly the end of the world.
Does it actually matter? Is the car too slow? Is it's cornering behaviour unacceptable? Does it scrub speed poorly under braking? If the performance is acceptable then who cares? All you can say is that it will use up tyres and brakes faster but that's hardly the end of the world.
OwenK said:
All this crying about weight. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't actually matter.
Does it actually matter? Is the car too slow? If the performance is acceptable then who cares?
Excess weight is clearly a killer to overall performance in this very competitive sector.Does it actually matter? Is the car too slow? If the performance is acceptable then who cares?
Humdrum and acceptable performance is essentially not good enough even for a GT never mind pretend sports car such as the Jag.
Charm, personality, whatever. Same arbitary reasons British (and only really British) motoring journalists have been using to place sub-par Jaguars at the top of group roundups since at least 1970
I'd have the F-Type though, no question. The idea of having a TT (even with that engine) when you could have the F-Type is just laughable to me.
I guess charm and personality are very important to me
I'd have the F-Type though, no question. The idea of having a TT (even with that engine) when you could have the F-Type is just laughable to me.
I guess charm and personality are very important to me
av185 said:
Excess weight is clearly a killer to overall performance in this very competitive sector.
Humdrum and acceptable performance is essentially not good enough even for a GT never mind pretend sports car such as the Jag.
I have literally never heard anyone describe any F-type as "humdrum". Humdrum and acceptable performance is essentially not good enough even for a GT never mind pretend sports car such as the Jag.
ORD said:
akadk said:
ORD said:
F-Types come in at over 1700kg and sometimes well over 1800kg. Utterly embarrassing for a 2 seater.
until you own one for a year and it turns out to be the best car you have ever owned ...So which model/spec did you drive? Where did you drive it and how did you drive it?
Or are you just letting your imagination loose on the internet again?
kambites said:
Who on earth thinks the Cayman is "slow"?!? 
My problem with these sorts of cars tends to be the exact opposite - they're too fast and too easy to extract the performance from.
I'd suggest it was people who haven't really driven cars of this performance in anger and instead live through their imaginations with throw-away Top Gear banter taken literally.My problem with these sorts of cars tends to be the exact opposite - they're too fast and too easy to extract the performance from.
The fact is that there comes a point when any sports car is powerful and fast enough for what the driver wants to do with it. That point occurs when the driver realises their right foot is either at part throttle or they're not using all the revs for most of the time, due to how much power can be deployed exiting a particular corner etc etc.
People with fairly mediocre cars in real life won't relate to that as their cars don't bite if abused too much, so give far too much credence to on-paper figures.
Wayne58 said:
PhantomPH said:
I can't quite rationalise why people jizz in their pants over the Golf R, but somehow have a real issue with the TT for it's 'golf' underpinnings. Is it just a price thing? I know it was for me when I had the chance of the TTRS a few weeks ago. I just couldn't rationalise the price to a TT - no matter how fast it was.
All 3 of these cars were on my recent list and ironically the personal 'flaws' or compromises for each one, resulted in me actually buying none of them and going for a completely different car segment all together. I think part of that was that I could identify something that didn't sit right with me for each of the cars and in myself I knew those things would niggle during the ownership experience.
But once again, it was great to have the choice. I struggled with the 'what people will think' angle - a symptom of reading this forum I imagine - and this thread very much reads like people who have no chance of any of the cars new (note the "NEW") passing comment as if they are the authority.
Why would you assume folk on here can't have one? Bit of a presumptuous attitude is it not? All 3 of these cars were on my recent list and ironically the personal 'flaws' or compromises for each one, resulted in me actually buying none of them and going for a completely different car segment all together. I think part of that was that I could identify something that didn't sit right with me for each of the cars and in myself I knew those things would niggle during the ownership experience.
But once again, it was great to have the choice. I struggled with the 'what people will think' angle - a symptom of reading this forum I imagine - and this thread very much reads like people who have no chance of any of the cars new (note the "NEW") passing comment as if they are the authority.
PhantomPH said:
spikyone said:
PhantomPH said:
Again, I think people are strumming the stereotype banjo because 'its cool' to do it.
The previous gen (2009/10?) TTRS - the few that I've seen have actually been owned by mid-twenties lads who are still at home with their folks and have chosen them because they look a little more spesh than a Golf. Admittedly, they were not shopping in the high £60k bracket then, but the ownership demographic was certainly not hairdressers or footballers.
It's never been a sports car - it's a fast a-to-b machine for the point and squirt generation. And ultimately, that's fine!
There are two types of people who will drop £50k+ on a car. Serious enthusiasts who want a suitably focussed car and will stretch their money and perform every bit of man-maths known to humankind, or those with a bit of money. The TT RS isn't special enough to appeal to either of those groups. I can just about see it may be appealing, as a used option, to a 20-something looking for a performance bargain. I still wonder who's going to buy a new one.The previous gen (2009/10?) TTRS - the few that I've seen have actually been owned by mid-twenties lads who are still at home with their folks and have chosen them because they look a little more spesh than a Golf. Admittedly, they were not shopping in the high £60k bracket then, but the ownership demographic was certainly not hairdressers or footballers.
It's never been a sports car - it's a fast a-to-b machine for the point and squirt generation. And ultimately, that's fine!
What I do know, is that a certain chap already had paid the deposit on a TTRS for his wife as she, "...couldn't be trusted with an R8". I'm guessing he must have pulled out since it was the same dealer who was calling me and they only have 1 car available. But maybe that's the problem - people with the money to buy them tend to know a thing or two about money/value and as such will not just blindly drop the cash on something which doesn't seem to belong in the same bracket as it's price tag.
I'm looking forward to seeing the first post by someone who has made a purchase, but I've not seen one yet...
it's not just enthusiasts that will stretch the budget, many people just want the "best" because to their eyes it's cool / will impress other people etc.SPMX5 said:
As always it goes back to the fact that enthusiasts are the minority. People are far less critical of Audi in the real world, in fact a startling number of people actually think the cars are pretty cool *shock* it's not just enthusiasts that will stretch the budget, many people just want the "best" because to their eyes it's cool / will impress other people etc.
Another good point. I remember YEARS ago back when I worked as a lowly insurance guy, speaking to a retired old lady who was around 70-years-old (if I remember correctly). She was getting quotes for her new 'treat'. Her husband had passed and she decided she was going to live a little and treat herself to a brand new car - after all, she couldn't take it with her. So she had asked around her family and friends and decided a Golf was a good, reliable car to go and buy. So she had walked into the VW dealer and said, "What's the best Golf you do?". A few discussions later (and after being asked if she was sure about 20 times by the salesman), she had bought herself a fully loaded R32!! She was super excited and couldn't wait for collection. it's not just enthusiasts that will stretch the budget, many people just want the "best" because to their eyes it's cool / will impress other people etc.
Now there is something I love about the above memory and I just imagine that old woman giving it the berries out of the dealer on her first day, but it speaks to the point you make - some people just want 'the top of the range'. Fair play, I'd say!
The UK press for decades has been anti UK epitomised by Clarkson etc.. It is about time we were a bit more pro-UK manufacturing. I work in UK manufacturing and have had to endure lies and nonsense about UK manufacturing for decades despite it being 8th largest in the world.
All 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
All 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
B10 said:
The UK press for decades has been anti UK epitomised by Clarkson etc.. It is about time we were a bit more pro-UK manufacturing. I work in UK manufacturing and have had to endure lies and nonsense about UK manufacturing for decades despite it being 8th largest in the world.
All 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
clarkson anti uk manufacturing? this video is probably the best thing old TG didAll 3 cars are good and are for different types of customers. For me it would be down to the F type or Porker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmcmqTAu6b8
TooMany2cvs said:
£70k. For a frigging Golf in a frock.
<shakes head, sadly>
Agree with the £70k, however, Golf in a frock for this is a bit of a non starter in my book.<shakes head, sadly>
Different body, different interior - completely, different engine (not available in any VW product). So it shares a floorpan and errrr a few odd components perhaps.
Hardly the same car is it!!
Can someone please come up with another sterotype other than this please, it's well past it's sell by date!
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