RE: Visibility matters more than horsepower: TMIMW
Discussion
The only way this is going to change is when the manufactures/designers get held to account in accidents and even possibly done for corporate manslaughter when certain models have far more smidsy deaths than average.
Some cars you wouldn't even be able to take a driving test in as you'd fail within five seconds due to being unable to perform the look behind you check before pulling away.
Some cars you wouldn't even be able to take a driving test in as you'd fail within five seconds due to being unable to perform the look behind you check before pulling away.
Onehp said:
One reason to love clean sheet sports car designs that value visibility before style. Besides the ones mentioned, the Evora and the GT86 are also great. Another one that passed on the first page is the Suzuki Swift Sport, reminds me of an old Saab and has great visibility with A-pillars up straight and far removed to reduce their obstruction.
Exactly.....the Saab 900 design from 1979, had roll-over protection comparable with many a modern car designed in the past 5 years, yet the visibility from the drivers seat of a 900 was fantastic, with the upright a-pillars and slim b-pillars, and that fabulous curved upright windscreen.The trend for these ludicrously sloped windscreens and a-pillars in most modern cars is just lazy design IMHO, driven by the drive to get emissions down by creating the most slippery shape as possible.
Having to rely on electronic gadgets instead of the Mk1 eyeball doesn't make a great safety case improvement IMHO.
Couldn't agree more. McLaren and Mazda deserve much praise for getting that right. Thick A pillars and high bonnet lines make placement tricky. That was the one thing I found frustrating about a Seven. The fact that you couldn't see over the crest ahead made country road overtaking an act of white knuckle faith. Great fun but frustratingly hard to get past stuff. Having said that overall visibility was stunning, just needed a periscope beside the rear view mirror! Perhaps as more power is drawn from smaller capacity engines others can follow Mazda's lead?
Cab forward body structures like the current Fiesta and all manner of small hatches there the screen is several feet in front of the drivers head are the real culprits. They might score well in frontal or pedestrian safety but are a bugger to see out of. It's high time NCAP got involved in visibility. I've got access to 4 cars and they are terrible in this regard.
I hate my wife's Focus for this very reason. It's so bad I can comfortably mount my iPhone Plus as a Satnav within the space taken up by the A-pillar (which, incidentally, I find far safer and less distracting than having one in the centre, even if it's not taking up any screen real estate).
A Pillar and mirrors annoy the hell out of me. Having recently collected an M140i its the biggest annoyance I have found.
I can get used to the electric steering that took a few days, but I will never be able to see around the massive a-pillar & mirror combo that means getting to the end of a road leaves you leaning backwards and forwards.
I find it most annoying on large roundabouts that aren't consistently round you have to guess where the inside will be at certain points.
I cant believe police do not stop those mini cabs who have their phone and 2 satnavs stuck to the window all above the steering wheel or to the middle of the windscreen!
I can get used to the electric steering that took a few days, but I will never be able to see around the massive a-pillar & mirror combo that means getting to the end of a road leaves you leaning backwards and forwards.
I find it most annoying on large roundabouts that aren't consistently round you have to guess where the inside will be at certain points.
I cant believe police do not stop those mini cabs who have their phone and 2 satnavs stuck to the window all above the steering wheel or to the middle of the windscreen!
My wife's 2002 vw beetle is atrocious for visibility. The A pillar is one of the thickest ive seen on a car, and the massive mirrors dont help either! I've seen numerous occasions where i've lost cars behind them coming trying to pull out of junctions.
Considering my 2002 golf is based on the same platform they're worlds apart in terms of visibility.
Considering my 2002 golf is based on the same platform they're worlds apart in terms of visibility.
definitely this, my previous two cars were subarus, FSti and WRX Sti both seemed fine to judge the dimensions particularly the forester. Recently got an RS6 and the visiblity is my only gripe, hard to line up when parking, embarrassingly sometimes even in normal parking bays, park get out look and think what a 
piece of parking, get back in and do again.
Also the A pillar mirror combo gives a junction sized blind spot.
piece of parking, get back in and do again.Also the A pillar mirror combo gives a junction sized blind spot.
Rumblestripe said:
The worst I've driven is the Insignia which was like driving a tank whilst looking through a letterbox.
In answer to the question about the triangulated a-pillar illustrated, cost. Far cheaper to bend a nice thick heavy bit of steel.
Agree 100% about the Insignia. Had one as a hire car once and found general all-round visibility appalling. For me the letterbox was the rear window; for such a long car I had real problems reverse parking.In answer to the question about the triangulated a-pillar illustrated, cost. Far cheaper to bend a nice thick heavy bit of steel.
I had the misfortune of collecting a Left Hand Drive 370z from somewhere north of Milton Keynes for some development work several years back. I hadn't appreciated how bad visibility was until I reached the first of MANY roundabouts. As I had positioned the car for the first roundabout, like you would a normal RHD car, and came to a stop because of traffic I appreciated the problem.
Sitting in the left side, the offside mirror, combined with a stupidly large A pillar meant that visibility was seriously dangerous. I honestly think with the low slung position and aforementioned mirror and a pillar I could have lost a 7.5 truck in the blindspot. Gingerly adjusting the car position to get a better view was unpleasant. Sort of like waiting for a large Bang which you think is inevitable.
Better road positioning made the rest of the journey back easier, but for me I could never like the 370z again. I couldn't hack those blindspots along with the rear quarter windows which were pointless as the chair blocked any potential view from them!
Edited to add illustration below:
Sitting in the left side, the offside mirror, combined with a stupidly large A pillar meant that visibility was seriously dangerous. I honestly think with the low slung position and aforementioned mirror and a pillar I could have lost a 7.5 truck in the blindspot. Gingerly adjusting the car position to get a better view was unpleasant. Sort of like waiting for a large Bang which you think is inevitable.
Better road positioning made the rest of the journey back easier, but for me I could never like the 370z again. I couldn't hack those blindspots along with the rear quarter windows which were pointless as the chair blocked any potential view from them!
Edited to add illustration below:
Edited by Jon_Bmw on Wednesday 14th December 13:54
Totally agree with the article - I drove a new Focus as a hire car and was amazed how hard it was to see out of. It makes you speculate, given that Ford sells tonnes of them, how may motorcyclists have lost their lives because a Focus driver just didn't see them? I bet it's more than one, I also bet it's more than Focus drivers who've died in rollover accidents...
The solution is also easy - have euro NCAP include a visibility test as part of its new car assessment. If visibility is below a certain threshold then the car loses a star. That would soon have the manufacturers coming up with some innovation.
The solution is also easy - have euro NCAP include a visibility test as part of its new car assessment. If visibility is below a certain threshold then the car loses a star. That would soon have the manufacturers coming up with some innovation.
The Crack Fox said:
Good topic!
I am sure the modern answer is to fit cameras to outside of the A pillars, then have a large touch screen display on the inside of the a pillar in the cabin, with a bluetooth interface and voice activated software telling you what may or may not be behind the a pillar, and a disclaimer in the manual that says when it doesn't work that it's the drivers fault for mowing down dozens of people because he can't bloody well see them. Right?
Here's how a pillars should be done;
And here's one of the worst, whopping mirrors and all;
Internet points for guessing the cars.
Good topic, Mr Dan
First one a Lancia Fulvia? Sorry but really don't care about the second. (IE don't know!)I am sure the modern answer is to fit cameras to outside of the A pillars, then have a large touch screen display on the inside of the a pillar in the cabin, with a bluetooth interface and voice activated software telling you what may or may not be behind the a pillar, and a disclaimer in the manual that says when it doesn't work that it's the drivers fault for mowing down dozens of people because he can't bloody well see them. Right?
Here's how a pillars should be done;
And here's one of the worst, whopping mirrors and all;
Internet points for guessing the cars.
Good topic, Mr Dan
Edited by The Crack Fox on Wednesday 14th December 10:25
A bit off topic but linked, what about headlights?. I have a leased 2015 320D BMW with std lights, very nice car but notable for the poor lighting performance. Not a patch on our 52 plate Fiesta. Why no mention of lighting capability in road tests. Perhaps the road testers are in the pub when it is dark.
Liamst said:
A Pillar and mirrors annoy the hell out of me. Having recently collected an M140i its the biggest annoyance I have found.
I can get used to the electric steering that took a few days, but I will never be able to see around the massive a-pillar & mirror combo that means getting to the end of a road leaves you leaning backwards and forwards.
I find it most annoying on large roundabouts that aren't consistently round you have to guess where the inside will be at certain points.
I cant believe police do not stop those mini cabs who have their phone and 2 satnavs stuck to the window all above the steering wheel or to the middle of the windscreen!
Tell me about it! Just offloaded my M135i after nearly 3 yrs and that was the biggest annnoyance. Also makes it much harder than it should be to place on the road when pressing on. Maddening.I can get used to the electric steering that took a few days, but I will never be able to see around the massive a-pillar & mirror combo that means getting to the end of a road leaves you leaning backwards and forwards.
I find it most annoying on large roundabouts that aren't consistently round you have to guess where the inside will be at certain points.
I cant believe police do not stop those mini cabs who have their phone and 2 satnavs stuck to the window all above the steering wheel or to the middle of the windscreen!
I'm now in s 2000 Jaguar XJR. Massive car but so much easier to deal with. What a relief.
Good article, totally agree. That's one of the things I love about Eighties cars.
We've recently bought an f31 (current) 3 series and I have been impressed with the view out and relatively slim A pillars.
Ours also has the LED headlight upgrade which is fantastic.
But they're no where near as good as the tiny pillars in the classic Range Rover or 900 that I'm used to!
We've recently bought an f31 (current) 3 series and I have been impressed with the view out and relatively slim A pillars.
Ours also has the LED headlight upgrade which is fantastic.
But they're no where near as good as the tiny pillars in the classic Range Rover or 900 that I'm used to!
Edited by MrMoonyMan on Wednesday 14th December 17:12
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