RE: PH 2016- Porsche 911 R vs the world!

RE: PH 2016- Porsche 911 R vs the world!

Author
Discussion

sidesauce

894 posts

157 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
hornbaek said:
I think that the "R" is an indication what we can expect in the comming years from Porsche, Ferrari etc. The current batch of super/sports cars has pretty much reached the end of the road. Most of these cars are too fast and too efficent for today's world. I think manufacturers are sensing this and will go back to cars that provide and enjoyment rather than beating statistics. So the "R" was a test and we will probably see more manual "drivers cars" in the future as the market will split into "transportation" and "the joy of motoring". Transportation will go all electric and for the people who still like to drive there will be some "low tech" offerings for the week end. Even Ferrari is rumoured to work on a manual car again would you believe. I can't understand the hype about the "R" but if it is a sign of things to come - bring it on.
This is a great point too - what's to say that in future, Porsche don't release another/alternate version of the 911R or variance thereof and this was effectively just a 'dry run' to gauge customer reaction? What will people moan about then!? wink

WTFWT

727 posts

162 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
sidesauce said:
big_rob_sydney said:
And equally for that reason, I wont be buying any of their product. They and their OPC's with their dubious sales practises can rot in hell for all I care.
I will be buying at least one of their products. The availability, or lack thereof, of a 911R matters not one jot to me as I was never in the market for such a car. I will still gladly buy and enjoy running whatever I end up choosing to buy from them.

My situation and viewpoint applies to most of the people who actually buy Porsches offerings. If you and a small minority (and in the greater scheme of things, you and others who share your opinion are NOT an 'enormous amount of people', particularly as 911s are not the main income making model for Porsche) of others want to take a stand, morally or otherwise, by voting with your wallets then fair play to you - have at it! Meanwhile, the people who actually want to own a Porsche, you know, like all those, Cayenne/Macan and Panameras that get bought worldwide every year, will continue to vote with their wallets too as Porsches profits show year on year.

You are free to grumble but as the world turns, Porsche/VAG make money, shareholders are happy and life goes on.

Edited by sidesauce on Tuesday 27th December 00:40
I think you're missing a key point. I am a typical PH male and make the car buying decisions in my family. My wife has a casual interest in cars, but just asks me what she thinks fits her needs best and has flitted between BMW, Merc and Audi.

I have tried to buy a 911R and a 997 GT2 RS in both cases to be told, "not possible." I have never owned a Porsche before and, at this rate, never will. I have spent the money on 8C, DB4 and anything else that tickles my fancy that I could actually buy.

By not having me in the showroom for a handover, or in reception for service, the products are never in eyesight of my wife. She won't ever poke around a Cayenne and say, "Let's have one of these next instead of a Merc." Or, "I fancy something for the summer, let's have a Boxster."

I am a car nut, but the only Porsches I would like to buy, I can't. That doesn't seem right. I am not a buyer and therefore not an ambassador and am building no affinity with the dealer or company despite buying a car every year. That statement above, in isolation, seems an odd business situation to be comfortable with.

Edited by WTFWT on Tuesday 27th December 17:07

cmoose

43,897 posts

168 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
CABC said:
You're right, but that's not their market.

"The R is not the purest driving experience around; there's a brand based in Norfolk with cars you can actually buy who'll cater to that need. "
Sort of yes, but sort of no. Lotus are super good in some dynamic areas, but weak in others. You can say the same of various Porsches, it's just the areas are different.

Thus, you could certainly make the argument for your Lotus of choice being the ultimate purist road car. But there are certain Porsches for which you could make just as good an argument. It all depends on the particulars that give you joy / make your teeth itch.

What frustrates me is that Porsche could so easily have offered a little Clubsport package on the cooking 981/991 that would have made for wonderful, wonderful road cars without denting the trophy / collector car / halo car market one little bit. If the Clubsport option was just available to anyone, the letter-of-intent / car-flipping brigade wouldn't give it a second look and they could carry one competing for GTx cars and Rs etc, while Porsche actually delivered on the lip service it paid to listening to enthusiasts when the likes of AP were marketing the R.

With the mainstream cars going turbo, that ship has now sailed, sadly. So, similarly to BMW though not quite as comprehensively yet, new Porsches are now of very little interest to me.

Magic919

14,126 posts

140 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Wayne58 said:
av185 said:
Single mass flywheel is an option.

Gives the car the all important racing chunter/clatter on idle too.
The chunter and clatter flywheel is dual mass, single mass is just a flywheel.
It's the other way round and the chatter is not the sound of the solid flywheel.

yonex

13,373 posts

107 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
av185 said:
Single mass flywheel is an option.

Gives the car the all important racing chunter/clatter on idle too.
Why would a solid flywheel 'chatter'?
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Dan Trent

1,825 posts

107 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
audidoody said:
Those Boaster engines are really something to brag about
banghead Apologies for that; wasn't in Matt's raw copy and I don't think I'd have added it in myself so am putting it down to autocorrect taking matters into its own hands and adding an (admittedly amusing, in a Freudian slip kind of way) error of its own. Shouldn't have happened though, shouldn't have taken as long to address but it's sorted now.

Am off to find wall to bang my head against now, do excuse me...

Dan

Wayne58

152 posts

52 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Magic919 said:
It's the other way round and the chatter is not the sound of the solid flywheel.
Thats what I said ?? Dual mass is chatter, single mass is just a normal solid flywheel

sidesauce

894 posts

157 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
WTFWT said:
sidesauce said:
big_rob_sydney said:
And equally for that reason, I wont be buying any of their product. They and their OPC's with their dubious sales practises can rot in hell for all I care.
I will be buying at least one of their products. The availability, or lack thereof, of a 911R matters not one jot to me as I was never in the market for such a car. I will still gladly buy and enjoy running whatever I end up choosing to buy from them.

My situation and viewpoint applies to most of the people who actually buy Porsches offerings. If you and a small minority (and in the greater scheme of things, you and others who share your opinion are NOT an 'enormous amount of people', particularly as 911s are not the main income making model for Porsche) of others want to take a stand, morally or otherwise, by voting with your wallets then fair play to you - have at it! Meanwhile, the people who actually want to own a Porsche, you know, like all those, Cayenne/Macan and Panameras that get bought worldwide every year, will continue to vote with their wallets too as Porsches profits show year on year.

You are free to grumble but as the world turns, Porsche/VAG make money, shareholders are happy and life goes on.

Edited by sidesauce on Tuesday 27th December 00:40
I think you're missing a key point. I am a typical PH male and make the car using decisions in my family. My wife has a casual interest in cars, but just asks me what she thinks fits her needs best and has flitted between BMW, Merc and Audi.

I have tried to buy a 911R and a 997 GT2 RS in both cases to be told, "not possible." I have never owned a Porsche before and, at this rate, never will. I have spent the money on 8C, DB4 and anything else that tickles my fancy that I could actually buy.

By not having me in the showroom for a handover, or in reception for service, the products are never in eyesight of my wife. She won't ever poke around a Cayenne and say, "Let's have one of these next instead of a Merc." Or, "I fancy something for the summer, let's have a Boxster."

I am a car nut, but the only Porsches I would like to buy, I can't. That doesn't seem right. I am not a buyer and therefore not an ambassador and am building no affinity with the dealer or company despite buying a car every year. That statement above, in isolation, seems an odd business situation to be comfortable with.
I am not missing the point at all, I just don't agree with it.

Porsche may not have you as a customer but they don't care as they have people literally queuing to buy their cars. You decided to not buy one? Fine. Better believe someone else will gladly take your place. Try buying a Macan right now - they're still on an 18 month waiting list, a face lifted model is about to come out and not only have they upped the price, they're offering to buy back the early (well-specced) models from customers for the price the customers paid for them originally; do their accountants care that some disgruntled folk will purchase another brand? Not a bit of it.

With respect, for you to say 'it doesn't seem right' because you personally can't get one makes no sense to me. If Porsche choose to make a few examples of a particular model available to their dealers, that's entirely up to them! Their business model doesn't fit the typical car manufacturer as the demand is simply so high so although it is odd they can do what they like.


Edited by sidesauce on Tuesday 27th December 17:24

Magic919

14,126 posts

140 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Wayne58 said:
Magic919 said:
It's the other way round and the chatter is not the sound of the solid flywheel.
Thats what I said ?? Dual mass is chatter, single mass is just a normal solid flywheel
No, that's the opposite of what I am saying.

Gary C

4,754 posts

118 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
av185 said:
All this whinging.....just buy a 991 GT3 instead.

Better car imo.....with just the right amount of aero.

Plus you don't have to put up with that hideous houndstooth trim in the R. biggrin:

Win win.

driving
But the gt3 is pdk !

Wish they would do a very basic 911

None assisted steering, manual gearbox, basic engine, no dynamic engine mounts, no interior to speak of, etc.

But I bet the chassis is so designed to work with all the tech, they would have to spend a fortune to get a back to basics version to work.

I still would like Porsche to replace the 911 in the line up with a GT1 style of supercar, then reposition the 911 as a raw sports car, but it won't happen.

Ho hum, just have to stick with my carrera, none assisted steering, manual gearbox, basic engine, no dynamic engine mounts, basic interior, no abs........LOTs of fun !

Oilchange

5,345 posts

199 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
911 ? No thanks.
Evora 410.
Better car dynamically and I don't have to worry about being let out at junctions.

Wayne58

152 posts

52 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Try buying a Macan right now - they're still on an 18 months waiting list.........

Sorry, but incorrect, I was in Porsche two days before Xmas, said I could have new Macan by March/april. Dealer said that only the gts still has a waiting list. This dealer was not isolated, Portsmouth and reading said the same.


Edited by Wayne58 on Tuesday 27th December 19:46

Wayne58

152 posts

52 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Magic919 said:
No, that's the opposite of what I am saying.
Why would a solid flywheel chatter?

Magic919

14,126 posts

140 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
It doesn't, as I said previously.

tjlees

1,366 posts

176 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Wayne58 said:
Try buying a Macan right now - they're still on an 18 months waiting list.........

Sorry, but incorrect, I was in Porsche two days before Xmas, said I could have new Macan by March/april. Dealer said that only the gts still has a waiting list. This dealer was not isolated, Portsmouth and reading said the same.
Agreed.

Other 911 models also haven't got a long waiting list - it just over demand and under supply on GTs and the R. I'm happy to wait 12 months but the numbers are limited so you won't get one, unless you are on the inner circle.

sege

190 posts

161 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
I bet that in hindsight a lot of people at Porsche probably regret the business model chosen for this car due to the huge amount of negative publicity it has generated, not only amongst internet whiners and keyboard warriors but (apparently) also amongst what would otherwise be paying customers.
This hurts the 'brand' and generates a lot of negative sentiment.

Nice to hear the comment about it still having inferior steering to a 997. Mostly all you hear about this car is how omgamazeballs it is. But I can't see how it can be more engaging to drive than a Mk1 GT3 or countless other older 911s. I wonder how it compares to a 997 GT3? or also for that matter a 991GT3 if that's what floats your boat. Probably not a how lot different I'm guessing. Add to that all the negative sentiment, the issue that you can't buy one or drive one and that most who own them will never drive them either and I can't see this car being a long term classic in the sense of a 968CS, its just going to be a speculators asset.

The reason Porsche can get away with stuff like this today is due to the brand image created by cars like the 968CS: Hardcore no apologies pure driving machines. That car cost less than the base model...because it was basically the same but with a load of stuff striped out.
But a 911R is unobtainable, will not be driven (and is inferior to a 997 anyway...).
Also, someone else mentioned Singer above. Good point. To have a 911R at the prices they are supposedly now worth over a Singer you either have to be mad or a speculator. So who cares anyway?

But you can't short-sightedly draw from your well of brand image forever. People get fed up with it. Porsche know this imo. Expect something great from Porsche again soon to compensate.
Looking forward to it!

swisstoni

7,462 posts

218 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
As an outsider to the Porsche world it's at a bit like watching the antics of a boy-band and their fans.
Hard to know what all the fuss is about, and not a scene I'd like to get involved with.

NJH

2,844 posts

148 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
Sege will it be at a price mortals can afford?

Porsche have shown no intention of recreating the 968CS ethos since well the 968CS i.e. a car priced at the bottom of the range which is a purist driving machine.

twinturban

152 posts

61 months

cmoose

43,897 posts

168 months

Tuesday 27th December 2016
quotequote all
sege said:
I bet that in hindsight a lot of people at Porsche probably regret the business model chosen for this car due to the huge amount of negative publicity it has generated, not only amongst internet whiners and keyboard warriors but (apparently) also amongst what would otherwise be paying customers.
This hurts the 'brand' and generates a lot of negative sentiment.
I think that's very likely wrong. It can't be a bad thing for the brand's aura to have punters beating each other to death with letters of intent to get their hands on these unicorn / trophy cars.

A small handful of people have got snotty, but I can't see it's of any consequence. The cars are massively over subscribed. What are you implying? That the new GT3 in 2017 won't be over subscribed? That it won't immediately turn up in the classifieds for a premium over new? If not that, then how exactly is the business model harmed? Outside of enthusiasts and speculators / flippers, nobody knows or cares about all this.

Most of the enthusiasts either can't afford cars like this or can't get allocations. The main thing for the speculators and flippers is the prospect of turning and profit and for that the limit supply and the general allocation stshow is actually what underpins the the bubble pricing on this stuff.

Meanwhile, your average diesel Macan buyer (you know, the one buying the cars that actually matter for profitability) likely knows little or nothing beyond just maybe having read about the R being so totes amaze you can barely buy one - ie, Porsche the brand looks exotic and exclusive and desirable.

I really can't see how this hurts the brand much if at all. It's largely all gravy for the marketing machine.

Indeed, the best way to fk things up would be to suddenly offer cars lke teh R to anyone who had the money. They'd probably struggle to shift 991 of them in that context. Who the hell wants a manual 911 with no sound deadening that anyone can buy for list price and isn't designed to go straight in collections / turn a profit?

Edited by cmoose on Tuesday 27th December 23:29