RE: PH 2016- Porsche 911 R vs the world!
Discussion
I've only ever owned one 911, a 993 C4 coupe bought new in 1997, for which I paid more for than I did my house. It was fabulous, and I drove it often, and spent many hours sitting in the garage, just looking at it. Sad but true. This 911R looks like the kind of car I could fall in love with in a similar way, but obviously will not have the opportunity to do so. I guess they've mostly gone to "investors" who will never appreciate just what they have, which is a shame. If Porsche would care to produce a regular version, without the stripes, and maybe drop some of the esoteric bits and bobs (magnesium roof, for example) then I imagine the queue would be long, and I might even be in it.
These days, I drive something old and relaxed on the road (Audi S8 D2) and go racing for my adrenaline fix (Historic Sports 2000). The economics are far more compelling, and the buzz just as great, if not more so.
These days, I drive something old and relaxed on the road (Audi S8 D2) and go racing for my adrenaline fix (Historic Sports 2000). The economics are far more compelling, and the buzz just as great, if not more so.
for all the genuine, enthusiastic comments here for an affordable, available, purist's 911 it ain't going to happen. That market is miniscule and irrelevant, sadly. Porsche have left that space for good. Making anything that was 'too affordable' would compromise the brand image. The 911R gets the press, creates a pedigree buzz and builds an aura for Macan sales.
Lotus produce cars that beat any Porsche for steering feel and feedback, plus they're now dry, warm and reliable! Do they sell in 10s of thousands? As cmoose says, if you want a civilised car that can also put on a great turn of speed and impress with its engineering finesse, Stuttgart has the product.
The other attack on purist cars is from mainstream manufacturers taking cooking platforms and producing uber hatches. technically competent and fast, but as one of the minority i'm left cold at these 'conversions'. In moving the game on in some areas they've sacrificed others. Toyota builds the 86, but the market doesn't seem to care much for feel, low cog, na engines etc.
Let's face reality, mainstream car enthusiasm has moved on. we're hobbyists!
Lotus produce cars that beat any Porsche for steering feel and feedback, plus they're now dry, warm and reliable! Do they sell in 10s of thousands? As cmoose says, if you want a civilised car that can also put on a great turn of speed and impress with its engineering finesse, Stuttgart has the product.
The other attack on purist cars is from mainstream manufacturers taking cooking platforms and producing uber hatches. technically competent and fast, but as one of the minority i'm left cold at these 'conversions'. In moving the game on in some areas they've sacrificed others. Toyota builds the 86, but the market doesn't seem to care much for feel, low cog, na engines etc.
Let's face reality, mainstream car enthusiasm has moved on. we're hobbyists!
sidesauce said:
big_rob_sydney said:
sidesauce said:
big_rob_sydney said:
And equally for that reason, I wont be buying any of their product. They and their OPC's with their dubious sales practises can rot in hell for all I care.
I will be buying at least one of their products. The availability, or lack thereof, of a 911R matters not one jot to me as I was never in the market for such a car. I will still gladly buy and enjoy running whatever I end up choosing to buy from them. My situation and viewpoint applies to most of the people who actually buy Porsches offerings. If you and a small minority (and in the greater scheme of things, you and others who share your opinion are NOT an 'enormous amount of people', particularly as 911s are not the main income making model for Porsche) of others want to take a stand, morally or otherwise, by voting with your wallets then fair play to you - have at it! Meanwhile, the people who actually want to own a Porsche, you know, like all those, Cayenne/Macan and Panameras that get bought worldwide every year, will continue to vote with their wallets too as Porsches profits show year on year.
You are free to grumble but as the world turns, Porsche/VAG make money, shareholders are happy and life goes on.
My main gripe isn't that a manufacturer has determined the size of the market. Quite the opposite. It would be wrong for a firm to over supply the market, in ANY line of business.
Instead, my issue is with the OPC practises, and how they relate to not just this one specific model, but previous form as well. I could be snippy and suggest "so, how did you go getting one of these", but that would be a waste of time, because of the limited supply, which is fine, but more problematic, the hoops you have to navigate with the parasitic OPCs.
So just to be clear, I don't have any problem whatsoever with this car, with Porsche existing to make money, or with them limiting supply to a market size that they believe, which is based on a price point that they also believe the market will bear.
swisstoni said:
As an outsider to the Porsche world it's at a bit like watching the antics of a boy-band and their fans.
Hard to know what all the fuss is about, and not a scene I'd like to get involved with.
'Scene'?Hard to know what all the fuss is about, and not a scene I'd like to get involved with.
The make a car, if you like it and can afford it and one is available, you get it.
No need for a 'scene' whatever the f
k that is.swisstoni said:
As an outsider to the Porsche world it's at a bit like watching the antics of a boy-band and their fans.
Hard to know what all the fuss is about, and not a scene I'd like to get involved with.
The 911R was the straw that broke the camels back. It was the final two-finger salute from suits on the board at Porsche Germany.Hard to know what all the fuss is about, and not a scene I'd like to get involved with.
I would say the problems started with the debacle of the 991GT3 launch and then were compounded with the even worse GT4 and GT3-RS launches.
I am hoping that cars like the Mercedes GT-R and the forthcoming Macca 570S models will start to place more pressure on Porsche to reverse the decisions they have made rather than keep throwing grenades at their own enthusiast community in the UK.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If it really was about purity the 911R wouldn't have EPAS, 4WS, auto rev matching and so on.In terms of the business of driving the Caterham is not crude in any respect. In a decent spec Seven steering feel, steering precision, handling, chassis balance, weight distribution, ride, braking performance, braking feel, gearchange quality - all the stuff that really matters to someone only interested in driving are all virtually unsurpassed. The CSR also features very sophisticated suspension design, certainly far in advance of the Boxter/Cayman's strut set up. Yes you are restricted to a choice of four cylinder engines but you can enjoy the same Duratec four that powers the BAC Mono for a fraction of the price or go one better and opt for the supercharged 310bhp Duratec which is entirely thrilling in every respect. If the 'crudity' straw you're clutching at refers to minor switchgear these are not things that should concern someone who prioritizes the process of driving above all else.
The 911R is in no way the ultimate 'driver's car' like it is being portrayed. It might be one of the best road cars to drive among the 'large, heavy, well equipped and comfortable' catagory, which is really what buyers (and journalists it seems) want. But all this untempered praise reminds me of BMW's famously ludicrous claim. The Ultimate Driving Machine? er... no it's not but say it enough times and people start to believe it....
Caterham don't have a monopoly on purity but physics does. The 300kg difference between a 991 GT3 and a Lotus Exige is dramatically obvious from behind the wheel. Going all the way down to less than half the weight of a 911R brings access to an entirely different realm of driver response, communication and involvement. Scale it up and it's greater than the difference between a 911R and a Bentley Continental. While I hope we would all find something to enjoy in a high speed two ton drawing room, I would hope there would be unanimous consent over which of the two would be more rewarding to drive. Similarly, anyone led to believe that the 911R is the be-all and end-all of fast driving is in for a shock if they ever drive one back-to-back with a decent spec Caterham on a track day.
I have raced many times (and won) in high level Caterhams, and I have owned 4 Lotuses, the latest being an Exige 350 Sport which I sold earlier this year,
IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time. A Caterham is great for what it is, but the powertrain, gearchamge, and quality is not even in the same universe as Porsche's. If you're going to compare to Caterhams on a track day, then why not just go the whole hog for a single seater race car. Makes the Caterham feel like a boat!
The same for the Lotus (which is fantastic - I would still have it, if the R hadn't been coming, and will definitely buy another one). The quality of the Porsche at every level shows through, and you just feel you can do anything with it and it will be up to the job. The Lotus feels great, but a level below in terms of kit and cost (which it is..)
I have driven 91GT3 and RS very fast on tracks, and I found them pretty unsatisfying - always feels like there's a layer of electronics between yiu and the car, Fast, but distant. Would have an Exige over an RS any day of the week.
The R is not like that - clearly the manual and everything that goes with it - heel and toe, coordination etc is the biggest thing (no autoblip unless you ask for it, and who would..?). However, it's more than that - the noise, the agility (4ws s one of those technologies which adds not detracts, and calibration and cohesiveness is miles better in R than RS)), the engine, the lack of inertia and the way it picks up, the brakes and how resilient the new Porsche Ceramics are, the proper diff etc etc. I (The steering is completely dialled in to the front wheels, but I agree a hydraulic system would be better)
It's genuinely brilliant.
So, what about the allocations..? I have some experience of both sides of the coin! I was told I was first in line for one, and tracked it for a long time before launch, I was invited to Geneva to Porsche hospitality to see it, Then, the week before, I found out I wasn't getting one (when I called to ask where to send the deposit!)
Toys out of the pram, and after one more phone call and two emails that day, I had no contact with Porsche or any dealer for almost 5 months, and genuinely would never have bought anothe P car. Then, totally out of the blue, I got a call saying they'd found another car and did I want it? On a personal level, that's fair enough - they made a mess of it (IMO) and then sorted it out without any more pressure from me.
To be clear, if I had been told at the start that I wouldn't get an allocation, I would have been unhappy but would have moved on without any moaning, as the limited numbers meant that it wasn't going to everyone. It was the mismanagement of expectations and handling of situation that caused the problem - not the allocation itself.
I can't hero but think that much of the unhappiness now is over the loss of 'profit' in the current market, as much as it is over missing out on the car itself. If Porsche had advertised a slower, noisier, manual car as an unlimited alternative to the last Gt3, how ,any of the recent PDK heroes would have wanted one?
if others are not happy then they totally should exercise their rights to vote with their wallets in future,
So, I completely understand why people are unhappy with the allocation process, and only in the long run will Porsxhe know if it's won or lost them customers. FWIW, I am not going to talke up an allocation on next GT3 as it's not going to add anything to what I have. I doubt I will ever sell the R and am going to drive or relentlessly!
Now that goodwill is repaired, I will buy a new Panamera wagon which is also being launched at Geneva, so maybe Porsche is not so daft after all...
(While we all think that it's not right that long term 911 and GT customers can't get one, maybe ithe big pay off for Porsche is still in the slates of Cayennes, Pamameras,Macans, who never have any though or wish of buying an R, but like to be associated with the latest unobtainable.)
IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time. A Caterham is great for what it is, but the powertrain, gearchamge, and quality is not even in the same universe as Porsche's. If you're going to compare to Caterhams on a track day, then why not just go the whole hog for a single seater race car. Makes the Caterham feel like a boat!
The same for the Lotus (which is fantastic - I would still have it, if the R hadn't been coming, and will definitely buy another one). The quality of the Porsche at every level shows through, and you just feel you can do anything with it and it will be up to the job. The Lotus feels great, but a level below in terms of kit and cost (which it is..)
I have driven 91GT3 and RS very fast on tracks, and I found them pretty unsatisfying - always feels like there's a layer of electronics between yiu and the car, Fast, but distant. Would have an Exige over an RS any day of the week.
The R is not like that - clearly the manual and everything that goes with it - heel and toe, coordination etc is the biggest thing (no autoblip unless you ask for it, and who would..?). However, it's more than that - the noise, the agility (4ws s one of those technologies which adds not detracts, and calibration and cohesiveness is miles better in R than RS)), the engine, the lack of inertia and the way it picks up, the brakes and how resilient the new Porsche Ceramics are, the proper diff etc etc. I (The steering is completely dialled in to the front wheels, but I agree a hydraulic system would be better)
It's genuinely brilliant.
So, what about the allocations..? I have some experience of both sides of the coin! I was told I was first in line for one, and tracked it for a long time before launch, I was invited to Geneva to Porsche hospitality to see it, Then, the week before, I found out I wasn't getting one (when I called to ask where to send the deposit!)
Toys out of the pram, and after one more phone call and two emails that day, I had no contact with Porsche or any dealer for almost 5 months, and genuinely would never have bought anothe P car. Then, totally out of the blue, I got a call saying they'd found another car and did I want it? On a personal level, that's fair enough - they made a mess of it (IMO) and then sorted it out without any more pressure from me.
To be clear, if I had been told at the start that I wouldn't get an allocation, I would have been unhappy but would have moved on without any moaning, as the limited numbers meant that it wasn't going to everyone. It was the mismanagement of expectations and handling of situation that caused the problem - not the allocation itself.
I can't hero but think that much of the unhappiness now is over the loss of 'profit' in the current market, as much as it is over missing out on the car itself. If Porsche had advertised a slower, noisier, manual car as an unlimited alternative to the last Gt3, how ,any of the recent PDK heroes would have wanted one?
if others are not happy then they totally should exercise their rights to vote with their wallets in future,
So, I completely understand why people are unhappy with the allocation process, and only in the long run will Porsxhe know if it's won or lost them customers. FWIW, I am not going to talke up an allocation on next GT3 as it's not going to add anything to what I have. I doubt I will ever sell the R and am going to drive or relentlessly!
Now that goodwill is repaired, I will buy a new Panamera wagon which is also being launched at Geneva, so maybe Porsche is not so daft after all...
(While we all think that it's not right that long term 911 and GT customers can't get one, maybe ithe big pay off for Porsche is still in the slates of Cayennes, Pamameras,Macans, who never have any though or wish of buying an R, but like to be associated with the latest unobtainable.)
Yes a single seater would be even better on a trackday than a Caterham, for the same reason that (road comfort and refinement aside) the seven is a more immediate car with levels of genuine, lucid communication that is completely beyond any Porsche on sale. The single seater is just not so good for getting you home again. I have driven a few sevens with proper exotic motorsport engine builds and they are razor sharp and respond to the throttle like no road car on sale at any price. Probably too much for road use but stunning power units in their own right. It's easy to get sniffy about 'fours' but you only have to throw a leg over a modern litre bike to realise that a four cylinder can be utterly awe inspiring in every regard. V12s will always hold a special place in my heart but redlining a ZX10R is what you call a 'peak experience'.
You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The Caterham is a greater, more intense, more pure driving experience than the 911 for the same reason that the single seater is even more enthralling than a Seven. The Porsche is making up the laptime relative to a Seven with its engine. It's not gaining time on the brakes or around the corners. Stick the Seven's engine in the 911R and you'll see how inadequate, inefficient and hopelessly compromised the basic chassis is. Stick the 911R motor in the seven (somehow) and if you could get it to work you'd have something that could challenge a GP2 car.
You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The Caterham is a greater, more intense, more pure driving experience than the 911 for the same reason that the single seater is even more enthralling than a Seven. The Porsche is making up the laptime relative to a Seven with its engine. It's not gaining time on the brakes or around the corners. Stick the Seven's engine in the 911R and you'll see how inadequate, inefficient and hopelessly compromised the basic chassis is. Stick the 911R motor in the seven (somehow) and if you could get it to work you'd have something that could challenge a GP2 car.
Edited by twinturban on Wednesday 28th December 21:45
footsoldier said:
I have raced many times (and won) in high level Caterhams, and I have owned 4 Lotuses, the latest being an Exige 350 Sport which I sold earlier this year,
IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time. A Caterham is great for what it is, but the powertrain, gearchamge, and quality is not even in the same universe as Porsche's. If you're going to compare to Caterhams on a track day, then why not just go the whole hog for a single seater race car. Makes the Caterham feel like a boat!
The same for the Lotus (which is fantastic - I would still have it, if the R hadn't been coming, and will definitely buy another one). The quality of the Porsche at every level shows through, and you just feel you can do anything with it and it will be up to the job. The Lotus feels great, but a level below in terms of kit and cost (which it is..)
I have driven 91GT3 and RS very fast on tracks, and I found them pretty unsatisfying - always feels like there's a layer of electronics between yiu and the car, Fast, but distant. Would have an Exige over an RS any day of the week.
The R is not like that - clearly the manual and everything that goes with it - heel and toe, coordination etc is the biggest thing (no autoblip unless you ask for it, and who would..?). However, it's more than that - the noise, the agility (4ws s one of those technologies which adds not detracts, and calibration and cohesiveness is miles better in R than RS)), the engine, the lack of inertia and the way it picks up, the brakes and how resilient the new Porsche Ceramics are, the proper diff etc etc. I (The steering is completely dialled in to the front wheels, but I agree a hydraulic system would be better)
It's genuinely brilliant.
interesting, good to hear a balanced view from an owner.IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time. A Caterham is great for what it is, but the powertrain, gearchamge, and quality is not even in the same universe as Porsche's. If you're going to compare to Caterhams on a track day, then why not just go the whole hog for a single seater race car. Makes the Caterham feel like a boat!
The same for the Lotus (which is fantastic - I would still have it, if the R hadn't been coming, and will definitely buy another one). The quality of the Porsche at every level shows through, and you just feel you can do anything with it and it will be up to the job. The Lotus feels great, but a level below in terms of kit and cost (which it is..)
I have driven 91GT3 and RS very fast on tracks, and I found them pretty unsatisfying - always feels like there's a layer of electronics between yiu and the car, Fast, but distant. Would have an Exige over an RS any day of the week.
The R is not like that - clearly the manual and everything that goes with it - heel and toe, coordination etc is the biggest thing (no autoblip unless you ask for it, and who would..?). However, it's more than that - the noise, the agility (4ws s one of those technologies which adds not detracts, and calibration and cohesiveness is miles better in R than RS)), the engine, the lack of inertia and the way it picks up, the brakes and how resilient the new Porsche Ceramics are, the proper diff etc etc. I (The steering is completely dialled in to the front wheels, but I agree a hydraulic system would be better)
It's genuinely brilliant.
of course you've added to the frustration of many who want one!
twinturban said:
. Stick the 911R motor in the seven (somehow) and if you could get it to work you'd have something that could challenge a GP2 car.
You must be joking...A GP2 car is only about 50kg heavier than a Caterham, would still have 100+ BHP over it, in a proper short-life engine; loads of downforce; carbon tub; better suspension, etc. Different universe,
You've just said a motorsport Caterham is probably too much for the road, and I said:the R is...
"all-round more exhilarating road car". All-round, and road, being the two key phrases...
You're still talking in lap times, and championing cars that you can't use on the road very often, if at all.
An R is a more exciting, more useable and better built road car than a Caterham, a Lotus, or just about anything else on the public highway. A Cateham is great fun on track, but is bettered by loads of other track cars, and its appeal on the road is very short lived. They are not apples for apples.
I've and owned driven all of them, extensively, and quickly, in the right environments so I think I've a fair idea...
Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 28th December 21:52
Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 28th December 21:55
I think in reality, it was so popular because it was a limited run. If it wasn't limited I'm not sure they'd have sold many more. It's not like people were fighting in the streets for regular 997 GT3s and RSs, it was only when the 4.0l came along people went "ooooo", and now it's the same with the R.
And really, who cares. People just like to moan.
And really, who cares. People just like to moan.
PunterCam said:
I think in reality, it was so popular because it was a limited run. If it wasn't limited I'm not sure they'd have sold many more. It's not like people were fighting in the streets for regular 997 GT3s and RSs, it was only when the 4.0l came along people went "ooooo", and now it's the same with the R.
And really, who cares. People just like to moan.
This is true...look at the much rarer 996GT3RS that sat around in classifieds at £60k before all of these cars became 'investments". And really, who cares. People just like to moan.
The driving experience never changed, but it's desirability went through the roof purely because of perceived potential for cash benefits. (The 4.0 was also available at more or less list for a good while,)
footsoldier said:
You must be joking...
A GP2 car is only about 50kg heavier than a Caterham, would still have 100+ BHP over it, in a proper short-life engine; loads of downforce; carbon tub; better suspension, etc. Different universe,
You've just said a motorsport Caterham is probably too much for the road, and I said:the R is...
"all-round more exhilarating road car". All-round, and road, being the two key phrases...
You're still talking in lap times, and championing cars that you can't use on the road very often, if at all.
An R is a more exciting, more useable and better built road car than a Caterham, a Lotus, or just about anything else on the public highway. A Cateham is great fun on track, but is bettered by loads of other track cars, and its appeal on the road is very short lived. They are not apples for apples.
I've and owned driven all of them, extensively, and quickly, in the right environments so I think I've a fair idea...
A 911R powered Seven wouldn't be possible for a whole host of reasons so I wasn't being literal about its laptimes I'm sure you get the point I was making. A Ford duratec powered 911R would have very little going for it, it's really the engine that everyone loves in the 911R and RS. A GP2 car is only about 50kg heavier than a Caterham, would still have 100+ BHP over it, in a proper short-life engine; loads of downforce; carbon tub; better suspension, etc. Different universe,
You've just said a motorsport Caterham is probably too much for the road, and I said:the R is...
"all-round more exhilarating road car". All-round, and road, being the two key phrases...
You're still talking in lap times, and championing cars that you can't use on the road very often, if at all.
An R is a more exciting, more useable and better built road car than a Caterham, a Lotus, or just about anything else on the public highway. A Cateham is great fun on track, but is bettered by loads of other track cars, and its appeal on the road is very short lived. They are not apples for apples.
I've and owned driven all of them, extensively, and quickly, in the right environments so I think I've a fair idea...
Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 28th December 21:52
Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 28th December 21:55
I simply don't believe for one second that a 911R is a more exciting road car than a 620R. More comfortable, more useable, with a nicer engine note, sure. You may even find it more enjoyable on the road but more exciting? Get yourself back in one, then get straight back in your 911 and see for yourself.
I'd love to drive a 911R and see for myself whether it's any good. Unfortunately, I'm unlikely ever to be able to do so. The only people who are are include reviewers, and current or expected owners. And for reasons discussed in detail on other threads, neither are impartial. For that reason, it will always be a pointless car for me. The fact then that the only car I can test and buy from Porsche is one more focused on the casual driver rather than the driving enthusiast, i.e., a car which Porsche haven't put their full efforts into the areas that I care about, means the whole brand is pointless to me. Do Porsche care? Not at all. I will however be voting with my wallet in other areas, with Caterham and Lotus being at the top of my wish list.
twinturban said:
A 911R powered Seven wouldn't be possible for a whole host of reasons so I wasn't being literal about its laptimes I'm sure you get the point I was making. A Ford duratec powered 911R would have very little going for it, it's really the engine that everyone loves in the 911R and RS.
I simply don't believe for one second that a 911R is a more exciting road car than a 620R. More comfortable, more useable, with a nicer engine note, sure. You may even find it more enjoyable on the road but more exciting? Get yourself back in one, then get straight back in your 911 and see for yourself.
Having had a chat to an owner of both a 620 and GT3, he made the comment that it was 'a bit dull after the 7'. Whist this 911 is a very lively thing I cannot believe that it gives anywhere near the buzz that a well prepared lightweight can? The fact is you don't need a 620 at all, that's the beauty of them.I simply don't believe for one second that a 911R is a more exciting road car than a 620R. More comfortable, more useable, with a nicer engine note, sure. You may even find it more enjoyable on the road but more exciting? Get yourself back in one, then get straight back in your 911 and see for yourself.
That's the trouble with hype. It tends to make people lose sight of reality. Nice to see just a little return to these pages.
The 911R is a great road car, not the new messiah, no shame in that.
I guess owners are keen to keep the hype going in order to protect the value of their 'investments', if I'd just paid £400k for one I'd be doing the same thing!
The 911R is a great road car, not the new messiah, no shame in that.
I guess owners are keen to keep the hype going in order to protect the value of their 'investments', if I'd just paid £400k for one I'd be doing the same thing!
I'll try one more time....
What I said was:
"IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time."
Of course a 620R on a Superlight or whatever is going to have sharper reflexes, but it wears off quickly as a road car, and you can't use "all of its impressive attributes a lot of the time"
If it makes everyone happy: "The R is the best compromise out there", in my opinion.
Hopefully that's not too much hype!
(I didn't pay any more than list; won't sell it, and will depreciate it by 8-10,000 miles next year, so "investment value" is not top of my list either...)
What I said was:
"IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time."
Of course a 620R on a Superlight or whatever is going to have sharper reflexes, but it wears off quickly as a road car, and you can't use "all of its impressive attributes a lot of the time"
If it makes everyone happy: "The R is the best compromise out there", in my opinion.
Hopefully that's not too much hype!
(I didn't pay any more than list; won't sell it, and will depreciate it by 8-10,000 miles next year, so "investment value" is not top of my list either...)
I guess the thing is one is focused on the track, and one is on the road. Arguing which is better in broad terms is comparing apples with oranges unless you specify what the discipline is. 90% track 10% road or vice versa will give you a better basis for discussion.
Otherwise, I fear people (in whichever camp) are just willy waving.
Otherwise, I fear people (in whichever camp) are just willy waving.
footsoldier said:
I'll try one more time....
What I said was:
"IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time."
Of course a 620R on a Superlight or whatever is going to have sharper reflexes, but it wears off quickly as a road car, and you can't use "all of its impressive attributes a lot of the time"
If it makes everyone happy: "The R is the best compromise out there", in my opinion.
Hopefully that's not too much hype!
(I didn't pay any more than list; won't sell it, and will depreciate it by 8-10,000 miles next year, so "investment value" is not top of my list either...)
It's great when you click with a certain vehicle but whenever I see the phrase 'all-rounder' I pause. To me it's what makes certain vehicles, like those you have already mentioned, both flawed and far more enjoyable. Because of, not despite their limitations. I'd be unlikely to buy a modern 911, in fact a modern anything but I do admire the 'R'. One can only hope that it might go some way to getting more manual and NA engines back into the line up.And kudos for actually drving the damn thing, far too many of these will get tucked away as 'investments'.What I said was:
"IMO, after 2000 miles in it, the R is an all-round more exhilarating road car than both of them, because you can use all of its more impressive attributes, more of the time."
Of course a 620R on a Superlight or whatever is going to have sharper reflexes, but it wears off quickly as a road car, and you can't use "all of its impressive attributes a lot of the time"
If it makes everyone happy: "The R is the best compromise out there", in my opinion.
Hopefully that's not too much hype!
(I didn't pay any more than list; won't sell it, and will depreciate it by 8-10,000 miles next year, so "investment value" is not top of my list either...)
[quote=big_rob_sydney
]I guess the thing is one is focused on the track, and one is on the road. Arguing which is better in broad terms is comparing apples with oranges unless you specify what the discipline is. 90% track 10% road or vice versa will give you a better basis for discussion.
Otherwise, I fear people (in whichever camp) are just willy waving.
[/quote]
That the R exists is fantastic.
That I probably won't even be able to drive it sucks
]I guess the thing is one is focused on the track, and one is on the road. Arguing which is better in broad terms is comparing apples with oranges unless you specify what the discipline is. 90% track 10% road or vice versa will give you a better basis for discussion.Otherwise, I fear people (in whichever camp) are just willy waving.
[/quote]
That the R exists is fantastic.
That I probably won't even be able to drive it sucks
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff