- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.
Discussion
The gt86 failed to strike a cord with me unfortunately, as much as I wanted it to.
Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
Lefty said:
Quite. There's a certain unpleasant sneering from some gt86 owners who assume that anyone who doesn't own one just doesn't "get" them.
I like to point out to these types that perhaps if they are real enthusiasts they should be driving Caterhams or Elises. It doesn't go down well.
Its the people who dont own one but are coming out with that nonsense that get me.I like to point out to these types that perhaps if they are real enthusiasts they should be driving Caterhams or Elises. It doesn't go down well.
Likewise.
If i was doing track days and saturday morning runs, etc, i would NOT be dropping £26K on a GT86 to do it in.
Paul O said:
The gt86 failed to strike a cord with me unfortunately, as much as I wanted it to.
Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
Absolutely exactly how it was for us. We would have LOVED to love a GT86. Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
daemon said:
Your typical 320D rep-mobile is quicker off the line, and has an awful lot more torque.
I would say in 95% of daily driving, the 320d is the quicker car.
It's not.I would say in 95% of daily driving, the 320d is the quicker car.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-328d-...
http://www.caranddriver.com/scion/fr-s
The options to make it more powerful would mostly have made it a different kind of car. Supercharging it would have worked, but it's not a very emissions friendly way of doing it. Turbocharging would have been an option, but the naturally aspirated throttle response is part of the point of the thing. A larger capacity NA engine would have worsened emissions and either required four big cylinders for a modest increase in output or a six cylinder unit which would have been harder to package and given the limited applicability of such an engine, harder to justify the development costs.
Ultimately, it is what it is. There are no direct competitors because nobody makes cars like that. If you are happy with something spun off a higher volume platform, or indeed a cheaper high volume car with a bigger engine stuffed in it, there are plenty of alternatives which will give you more bang for your buck. If you want something with the specific focus of the GT86/BRZ, it's that or nothing. They've built a thing which has its own particular remit and it costs what it costs. You can't look at a completely different sort of car with more power and on that basis conclude that it's objectively too expensive. You can of course look at it and conclude that you don't value what it does enough for it to be worth the asking price to you, but that's a subjective thing.
Ultimately, it is what it is. There are no direct competitors because nobody makes cars like that. If you are happy with something spun off a higher volume platform, or indeed a cheaper high volume car with a bigger engine stuffed in it, there are plenty of alternatives which will give you more bang for your buck. If you want something with the specific focus of the GT86/BRZ, it's that or nothing. They've built a thing which has its own particular remit and it costs what it costs. You can't look at a completely different sort of car with more power and on that basis conclude that it's objectively too expensive. You can of course look at it and conclude that you don't value what it does enough for it to be worth the asking price to you, but that's a subjective thing.
LasseV said:
daemon said:
Your typical 320D rep-mobile is quicker off the line, and has an awful lot more torque.
I would say in 95% of daily driving, the 320d is the quicker car.
It's not.I would say in 95% of daily driving, the 320d is the quicker car.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-328d-...
http://www.caranddriver.com/scion/fr-s
For 95% of daily driving - round town, stuck in traffic, motorways, shopping, nipping for a pint of milk, the 320d will be the quicker car.
On the 5% of the time where the GT86 is on the right road and has the right conditions, yes, it will be the quicker car.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 22 January 14:08
otolith said:
The options to make it more powerful would mostly have made it a different kind of car. Supercharging it would have worked, but it's not a very emissions friendly way of doing it. Turbocharging would have been an option, but the naturally aspirated throttle response is part of the point of the thing. A larger capacity NA engine would have worsened emissions and either required four big cylinders for a modest increase in output or a six cylinder unit which would have been harder to package and given the limited applicability of such an engine, harder to justify the development costs.
Ultimately, it is what it is. There are no direct competitors because nobody makes cars like that. If you are happy with something spun off a higher volume platform, or indeed a cheaper high volume car with a bigger engine stuffed in it, there are plenty of alternatives which will give you more bang for your buck. If you want something with the specific focus of the GT86/BRZ, it's that or nothing. They've built a thing which has its own particular remit and it costs what it costs. You can't look at a completely different sort of car with more power and on that basis conclude that it's objectively too expensive. You can of course look at it and conclude that you don't value what it does enough for it to be worth the asking price to you, but that's a subjective thing.
All cars are compromises of some sort.Ultimately, it is what it is. There are no direct competitors because nobody makes cars like that. If you are happy with something spun off a higher volume platform, or indeed a cheaper high volume car with a bigger engine stuffed in it, there are plenty of alternatives which will give you more bang for your buck. If you want something with the specific focus of the GT86/BRZ, it's that or nothing. They've built a thing which has its own particular remit and it costs what it costs. You can't look at a completely different sort of car with more power and on that basis conclude that it's objectively too expensive. You can of course look at it and conclude that you don't value what it does enough for it to be worth the asking price to you, but that's a subjective thing.
The GT86 is a compromised car.
So in reality when you say "there are no direct rivals to the GT86", then really you're saying there are no other cars at the same price point have those same specific compromises?
The 370Z can be bought for the same £28K list price as a GT86, and you can get a decent discount from that price too.
It has a lot more power, but has compromises elsewhere, however is still a massively fun, impressive car to drive - but for different reasons.
Paul O said:
The gt86 failed to strike a cord with me unfortunately, as much as I wanted it to.
Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
This pretty much sums it up, when I first heard about the GT86 I had visions of Toyota going back to their old ways. A base car that didn`t really stand out, had great handling, enough power to make it interesting without going overboard, just generally fun to drive. That`s what I remember from Toyota`s small cars anyway.Principally because the concept looked like this, which was one of the best designs at the time on my opinion:
Then they made this, which looks like an old Hyundai coupe:
So, they made it look completely uninspiring.
Then they told us it was slow.
Then they told us it was expensive.
And then I lost all interest in it.
The GT86 kind of went in the opposite direction, flashy looks (still resembles a Hyundai to me), low power, unexciting drive, handling is still there but the package doesn`t work. It`s missing that excitement.
I'm not going to comment on my thoughts on the car, as I can't really be done with the fan boys telling me I'm not a true car enthusiast, etc.
I would like to point out though, that it hasn't really been selling that well in other countries of late - a quick google reflects a mate who's an industry analyst's view - less than 2000 sales in Europe in 2015, and less than 12000 Scion and BR-Z in the US last year- in both cases sales have tailed off significantly in the last two years.
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/to...
Not sure how accurate/trustworthy that site is, but it reflects a sentiment that's present in a a number of other blogs/articles, etc on-line.
I do understand it's very popular in Australia though, which surprises me given their love for the larger engine.
I would like to point out though, that it hasn't really been selling that well in other countries of late - a quick google reflects a mate who's an industry analyst's view - less than 2000 sales in Europe in 2015, and less than 12000 Scion and BR-Z in the US last year- in both cases sales have tailed off significantly in the last two years.
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/to...
Not sure how accurate/trustworthy that site is, but it reflects a sentiment that's present in a a number of other blogs/articles, etc on-line.
I do understand it's very popular in Australia though, which surprises me given their love for the larger engine.
daemon said:
All cars are compromises of some sort.
The GT86 is a compromised car.
So in reality when you say "there are no direct rivals to the GT86", then really you're saying there are no other cars at the same price point have those same specific compromises?
The 370Z can be bought for the same £28K list price as a GT86, and you can get a decent discount from that price too.
It has a lot more power, but has compromises elsewhere, however is still a massively fun, impressive car to drive - but for different reasons.
Exactly. They had a set of priorities and they nailed them. Other things had to be sacrificed. It doesn't have a small NA engine to save costs or in order to justify charging a larger margin on the next spec up, it has it because that's what was necessary to make the car they wanted.The GT86 is a compromised car.
So in reality when you say "there are no direct rivals to the GT86", then really you're saying there are no other cars at the same price point have those same specific compromises?
The 370Z can be bought for the same £28K list price as a GT86, and you can get a decent discount from that price too.
It has a lot more power, but has compromises elsewhere, however is still a massively fun, impressive car to drive - but for different reasons.
The 370Z doesn't try to do what the GT86 does. Toyota could have gone down that path, but they would have created a different kind of car (as it happens, one that sells even worse). Is the Nissan better value for money? Only if you like it better.
otolith said:
Exactly. They had a set of priorities and they nailed them. Other things had to be sacrificed. It doesn't have a small NA engine to save costs or in order to justify charging a larger margin on the next spec up, it has it because that's what was necessary to make the car they wanted.
Absolutely. The car itself - if thats what you're looking for - great. The designers nailed their brief. The four subsequent problems are (a) Toyota UKs pricing of it.
(b) The lack of decent manufacturer backed finance deals
(c) The lack of interest in promoting and selling GT86s by the dealer network.
(d) Not a lot of people want that particular set of compromises.
If they had sold the car for £19,995 and / or had some decent finance deals then does anyone really think they wouldnt have sold a lot more? But realistically, Toyota UK dont care. They're happy selling lots of Yaris's to little old ladies.
otolith said:
The 370Z doesn't try to do what the GT86 does. Toyota could have gone down that path, but they would have created a different kind of car (as it happens, one that sells even worse). Is the Nissan better value for money? Only if you like it better.
Agreed. However the 370Z comparison (by me at least) it to show that you can buy something an awful lot more powerful in a RWD coupe for the same sort of money. So does that not suggest the pricing is wrong by Toyota and we're being stiffed?I "get" what the designers were trying to do - its the bean counters at Toyota UK have cocked it up for everyone by its pricing and lack of manufacturer backed decent finance deals.
And Nissans problems with the 370Z are as bad -
(a) Crappy taxing of it - £505 a year
(b) Naff finance deals in a finance driven market - if Nissan dont believe in its car enough to put a decent GMFV on it, why should we, prospective buyers?
(c) Disinterested dealer network
(d) Not a lot of people want that particular set of compromises.
Is a 370Z a "better" car? Totally subjective and down to the individual. Its just a different set of compromises.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 22 January 15:21
Edited by daemon on Sunday 22 January 15:22
Edited by daemon on Sunday 22 January 15:24
AW111 said:
Why are the posters who don't like the GT86 so angry about it?
Not so much in this thread, but in other GT86 threads I've noticed a lot of anger gets directed at anyone that dares suggest Toyota make a hotter version as well. As if somehow it would ruin the existing version, even if they continued to sell both. grumbledoak said:
<peeks in>
Yup, situation normal. Shoulda bought a diesel BMW.
<backs out again>
That's right. There is literally no other choice.Yup, situation normal. Shoulda bought a diesel BMW.
<backs out again>
Still, at least you said BMW, this odd reductio ad absurdum usually features a diesel Audi.
They did sell it for £20k. Price very quickly reflected the balance of supply and demand (unsurprisingly). OK it was a few months old with nominal mileage but with 5 year warranty it didn't matter much. Cheap finance was always available elsewhere but the "all under one-roof" option wasn't there, that's true. The dealers I dealt with here on the South Coast (Worthing and Eastbourne) were passionate about the car and very knowledgeable. The Eastbourne demo was in full Group A Castrol livery (and we have quite a few old ladies around!!!). The car was a breath of fresh air for them. Personally, I don't need the assistance of a dealer to buy one and I don't think it's the kind of car where the dealer has much value to add.
SidewaysSi said:
daemon said:
SidewaysSi said:
I would have a GT86 over a Boxter anyday.
As is your perogative. Not once, by the way, have i intimated that people should pick a Boxster rather than a GT86, so not sure why you're going down that route?
daemon said:
SidewaysSi said:
daemon said:
SidewaysSi said:
I would have a GT86 over a Boxter anyday.
As is your perogative. Not once, by the way, have i intimated that people should pick a Boxster rather than a GT86, so not sure why you're going down that route?
Heck, I didn't even know I was going down a route till you helpfully pointed it out. For which I am eternally grateful.
Back to the cars, yes I would prefer a GT86 in that scenario. The Box(s)ter has never appealed at all to be honest - it always seemed to lack focus.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 22 January 15:53
When you consider that a new MX5 is:
-cheaper
-better interior and exterior
-better fuel consumption
-FASTER in a straight line and on track..
-convertible
Why would you go for the gt86 over a new mx5?
For its great engine sound? Its great looks? Practicality?
It needs to be decently faster than an mx5 to ever be a sale succes.
I used to own a golf gtd (185ps diesel) and it was exactly as fast as an gt86 on the road. Nothing in it.
Now I fully understand this car isn't about speed, but people thay buy a sport/ drivers car don't want to be showed up by every lease rep trying to race you.
If you look at the people buying these cars, only a very small percentage are 'purists'.
-cheaper
-better interior and exterior
-better fuel consumption
-FASTER in a straight line and on track..
-convertible
Why would you go for the gt86 over a new mx5?
For its great engine sound? Its great looks? Practicality?
It needs to be decently faster than an mx5 to ever be a sale succes.
I used to own a golf gtd (185ps diesel) and it was exactly as fast as an gt86 on the road. Nothing in it.
Now I fully understand this car isn't about speed, but people thay buy a sport/ drivers car don't want to be showed up by every lease rep trying to race you.
If you look at the people buying these cars, only a very small percentage are 'purists'.
Edited by TurboFlorio on Sunday 22 January 16:09
Edited by TurboFlorio on Sunday 22 January 16:19
daemon said:
Yes, it is. A new 320d is quicker off the line, and has more torque. End of. There is no debating that.
For 95% of daily driving - round town, stuck in traffic, motorways, shopping, nipping for a pint of milk, the 320d will be the quicker car.
On the 5% of the time where the GT86 is on the right road and has the right conditions, yes, it will be the quicker car.
Nope, you are wrong. They go side to side until higher speed GT86 rapidly walks away. 0-100mph time is vastly better in "slower car" (17.6 sec vs 21.2 sec). So actually GT86 is a much faster car. And i have a little bit of problem to think how other car can be faster than other when you a stuck in a traffic? Driving like a cock? Hmm, does this mean that bmw drivers are cocks and gt86 drivers are not?For 95% of daily driving - round town, stuck in traffic, motorways, shopping, nipping for a pint of milk, the 320d will be the quicker car.
On the 5% of the time where the GT86 is on the right road and has the right conditions, yes, it will be the quicker car.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 22 January 14:08
And about traction... Just changing tires you can have a car which can achieve 1g in a skid pad. Performance bargain i would say
And damn, you are on fire. Never seen someone take this s
t so seriously 
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