RE: Shed Of The Week: Renaultsport Clio 172
Discussion
Yeah I called the dealer about the SOTW - he sounded underwhelmed about the car, just wanted what it owed him. No MOT, sounds like the bonnet had been damaged as reason for CAT D.
There are two very nice 172s on eBay at 1995 each that sound track ready that I am going to look at this weekend.
I have high expectations.
P
There are two very nice 172s on eBay at 1995 each that sound track ready that I am going to look at this weekend.
I have high expectations.
P
FidoGoRetroGo said:
I have no idea what a "Dephaser Pulley" is, buy by the wrath of Grabthar, I want one on my next vehicle.
It's a cheap form of variable valve timing - my (and I'm not a mechanic) limited grasp is that the pulley on the cam end of the timing chain can be adjusted to vary the valve timing (adjusting the 'phase' of the timing - see also the Alfa Twinspark's notoriously dodgy variator units)You find these in Renaults and Peugeots at least - indeed, they're notoriously - even riotously - unreliable in more recent Peugeots where you also have belt-stretch issues to contend with, making timing the things a nightmare (basically, replace everything if you even suspect a timing issue - e.g. every 30 mins or so ;0 )
As for the SOTW - a MASSIVE ALARM is the lack of a numberplate because it usually means they don't want you checking into the MOT history/finding-out it's Catted before you goto see it etc. etc.
I must admit to a soft-spot for Cliosports of this era BUT it's a 2002 Renault and whilst the engines are reasonably solid and rust isn't as-bad as you'd maybe expect, the electrics on that thing will have been clinging-on to life for a decade already - expect water-ingress to be your mechanic's new favourite word(s)
Edited by 405dogvan on Saturday 28th January 02:32
exgtt said:
Had my Cup ages, fab little rattlebox! I've read things about the F4r dropping valves. Anyone know anymore on the issue?
The valves were 2 piece units as standard and after age they can occasionally break a head off. It's rare to do it on its own mind, the reason why a few more have been failing lately is the appearance of 'pop and bang' remaps.Very basically by adjusting the timing whilst mapping you can massively increase cylinder temperatures, giving a pop and a flame on up changes or when revving on idle.
The issue is the 2 piece (aged) valves don't like this and the excess heat makes them fail.
So if you look at one with a 'pop and bang' map I would advise steering clear.
With regards to electrics I have seen a few looms dry out but for a French Car their age they are very good - for example when I buy one I simply just make sure everything works - I don't worry on wiring condition.
Plus it's not too many areas where they fail so worst case is a loom swap which can be easily done in a weekend.
Plus it's not too many areas where they fail so worst case is a loom swap which can be easily done in a weekend.
I bought a 182 a year ago when I moved out of London and needed a runabout. Done 15k in it now. It would take a very hefty bill indeed for me to part with it, such a charismatic car.
Well worth the annual tax. What else can you get that's as cheap and PH-worthy for significantly less tax outlay?
Well worth the annual tax. What else can you get that's as cheap and PH-worthy for significantly less tax outlay?
Russ_16v said:
Hi,
I thought I'd offer my experience with these (I am a serial Clio RS owners, now having owned 51 different Mk2 RS models, I still have 3 now and I am also Sub-editor and feature writer for Performance French Car mag).
Cambelts.
As previously said, they aren't like a traditional setup and require correct tools to lock everything up right (no using tippex here) as the dephaser (VVT) pulley floats. You also need to know what order to use the tools so get the timing correct.
It is super easy to get it wrong and while it is a DIY job if you have the tools and take your time, it is normally easier to go to a specialist. Also most Renault garages see these irregularly and can get them wrong too.
The dephaser is oil pressure driven and adjusts the timing at c. 1350rpm then back around 6500 rpm (this is often confused as because they normally take off around 5k, people assume this is the VVT - it is not, it is the engine reaching VE).
The belts must be replaced every 72k or 5 years, whichever comes first.
What is also a killer is the aux belt - this is required to be replaced every 36k or 3 years and this gets skipped, they break and normally wrap around the cambelt.
Oh and you need to do an oil change with a belt change as due to the dephaser being oil pressure driven, if you have a knackered dephaser it can send iron filings around in the oil.
You will know if the dephaser is failing as when hot on idle the engine will sound like a diesel, but as soon as you rev the car over the 1350rpm VVT switchover point, the dephaser fills with oil and shuts up - return to idle and it starts being noisy again (they are normally quite on cold start as the oil is thicker).
I often get told 'My 172/182 is cammed because it idles lumpy' - this is wrong. they are crap on idle (partly to do with the crap pulsing through the inlet manifold recorded by the MAP sensor) and 'cammed' cars normally idle a little better due to normally having a slightly hihger idling speed.
Lastly, a incorrectly timed car will still run and drive, but I will be down on MPG and will loose you around 20-25bhp.
Gearboxes.
They vary greatly in condition. my first ever 172 I put 60,000 miles on and sold it on 145k and that was still on its original box and clutch, where I have had cars with half that miles crunch on gear changes.
It generally falls to how it was treated when new - they like rev matching, so as long as you can do that they can last quite well.
Clutches normally feel heavy and bite somewhere between half way and 3/4 of the way up, leading people to believe they are on its way out when in fact they have plenty of life left - the clutches are actually quite strong (Valeo is OEM and I would recommend using a Valeo if you ever replace it - they give the best feel and best for power) - a standard clutch will take over 200bhp.
And on that note, power outputs.
First off, they very rarely made quoted power. Sure, plenty of dynos will show silly results with these, but as a rule a good 172 on a realistic dyno will be around 165bhp, a good 182 around 8 bhp more.
Also these engine vary massively with power output - I have seen plenty of identical cars that have been 15 bhp different in power, I have seen 30k cars make 165bhp and 140k cars made 175bhp.
The engines on the 172 and 182 are near identical too. The 182 has a different exhaust manifold, slightly different ECU calibration and a different breather plate on the rocker cover, but nothing internal.
You will NOT get 200bhp from a filter, exhaust and remap, like a lot of places claim.
The engine is already 'modified' from the factory (it was originally used in the Espace and laguna with around 138bhp) so to get genuine power is actually quite tough.
Suspension.
Wishbone bushes get old, and tie rods wear as do ball joints - a refresh with genuine parts make a world of difference to how they drive and handle.
If you get wheel alignment done and find the rear axle isn't quite straight, this is quite common - you can try and straighten them but most leave them as it's normally only a slight amount.
also it makes a HUGE difference on suspension age - a 172 with worn shockers, worn wishbone bushes and play in track rods and ball joints will be horrid - drive a refreshed model and it is literally night and day - I cannot emphasise this enough.
Model differences.
I could do into every detail here but I won't bore you, so the basics:
2000-2001 ph1 172
2001-2004 ph2 172
2004-2005 182
You had a few different models of each, the ph1 getting the Exclusive models, which were numbered to 172 sold in the UK, they had different wheels, a full leather interior and painted Scarab green - mechanically the same.
The ph2 offered the Cup version - this is the most 'factory modified' version of the RS and a basic run down of its differences are:
Only available in blue and silver
No air con (though you could spec it as an option)
no leather
less sound proofing
16 inch speedline tunrini alloys
stiffer shockers
different spring rates
non tinted glass
non-heat relective front screen
wishbones that offered better castor
no ABS
no TC
no cruise control
no xenon headlights
Larger rear spoiler
front splitter
'matched' inlets (from the factory the upper and lower inlet holes were not matched - for the 172 Cup Renault made 'RS' inlets which have RS stamped in the lower section which were matched to offer a little more power - fitting these or matching your standard one may net you a few hp depending on how bad your old ones were, but it tends to smooth out the power delivery a little, though you would be lucky to notice right away)
In total it lost 89kg of weight compared to the normal 172.
Also the braking system was different as the rears did very little work - there is a letter from VOSA you can print off if your MOT station fails a Cup on rear brakes being crap.
There was a 182 Cup, but this only lost 20kg compared to the normal version, so you could have the best of both worlds and buy a 'normal' 182 with the cup packs fitted - this let you keep your creature comforts and have the better suspension and spoiler and splitter from the cup models.
Then we have the 182 Trophy. I am sure you are aware, these are the (limted to 500 uk cars) model that have the famous remote reservoir dampers but we wont go any more as you wont get them for a grand.
They do suffer with other problems such as 182 engine wiring looms have been known to dry out and go brittle causing random misfires, UCH boxes playing up (the brain that runs the non engine part of the car), plus immobiliser faults but nothing you wouldn't expect of the age.
In short, they are fantastic cars and are really good fun. A lot are being bought for track use as you will struggle to go faster for the money.
I would advise if you want a cheap one, ignore the model differences and simply get the best you can find for your cash - if you drive each different model back to back you would notice a slight difference but overall (especially if you're looking to modify) they are all great fun to drive and it's much more important to find a good base car than worry about the extra power from a 182 (when in reality I have driven plenty of 172's that were faster than 182's i've driven).
I would advise the following being important when looking at one:
Cambelt and aux belt
body damage (this can be hard as they didn't always have great fit from the factory and its common for front wings and front and rear bumpers to look a slightly different colour due to them being plastic)
any play in the steering
a knocking going on and off throttle/engine flopping about (the lower mount or dogbone bushes fail and this causes the knocking, while top mount and gearbox mount get old meaning you get engine slack - you can adjust the top mount about a bit which can help this)
Make sure no depahser noise
Apart from that, get it and enjoy it! they handle fantastic when refreshed and have plenty enough go.
I hope that helps a little, I have skipped over a lot of model differences and other trick bits as I don't want to bore you all but if I can be of any more help just ask.
Sorry to revive an old thread, I found this post very helpful.I thought I'd offer my experience with these (I am a serial Clio RS owners, now having owned 51 different Mk2 RS models, I still have 3 now and I am also Sub-editor and feature writer for Performance French Car mag).
Cambelts.
As previously said, they aren't like a traditional setup and require correct tools to lock everything up right (no using tippex here) as the dephaser (VVT) pulley floats. You also need to know what order to use the tools so get the timing correct.
It is super easy to get it wrong and while it is a DIY job if you have the tools and take your time, it is normally easier to go to a specialist. Also most Renault garages see these irregularly and can get them wrong too.
The dephaser is oil pressure driven and adjusts the timing at c. 1350rpm then back around 6500 rpm (this is often confused as because they normally take off around 5k, people assume this is the VVT - it is not, it is the engine reaching VE).
The belts must be replaced every 72k or 5 years, whichever comes first.
What is also a killer is the aux belt - this is required to be replaced every 36k or 3 years and this gets skipped, they break and normally wrap around the cambelt.
Oh and you need to do an oil change with a belt change as due to the dephaser being oil pressure driven, if you have a knackered dephaser it can send iron filings around in the oil.
You will know if the dephaser is failing as when hot on idle the engine will sound like a diesel, but as soon as you rev the car over the 1350rpm VVT switchover point, the dephaser fills with oil and shuts up - return to idle and it starts being noisy again (they are normally quite on cold start as the oil is thicker).
I often get told 'My 172/182 is cammed because it idles lumpy' - this is wrong. they are crap on idle (partly to do with the crap pulsing through the inlet manifold recorded by the MAP sensor) and 'cammed' cars normally idle a little better due to normally having a slightly hihger idling speed.
Lastly, a incorrectly timed car will still run and drive, but I will be down on MPG and will loose you around 20-25bhp.
Gearboxes.
They vary greatly in condition. my first ever 172 I put 60,000 miles on and sold it on 145k and that was still on its original box and clutch, where I have had cars with half that miles crunch on gear changes.
It generally falls to how it was treated when new - they like rev matching, so as long as you can do that they can last quite well.
Clutches normally feel heavy and bite somewhere between half way and 3/4 of the way up, leading people to believe they are on its way out when in fact they have plenty of life left - the clutches are actually quite strong (Valeo is OEM and I would recommend using a Valeo if you ever replace it - they give the best feel and best for power) - a standard clutch will take over 200bhp.
And on that note, power outputs.
First off, they very rarely made quoted power. Sure, plenty of dynos will show silly results with these, but as a rule a good 172 on a realistic dyno will be around 165bhp, a good 182 around 8 bhp more.
Also these engine vary massively with power output - I have seen plenty of identical cars that have been 15 bhp different in power, I have seen 30k cars make 165bhp and 140k cars made 175bhp.
The engines on the 172 and 182 are near identical too. The 182 has a different exhaust manifold, slightly different ECU calibration and a different breather plate on the rocker cover, but nothing internal.
You will NOT get 200bhp from a filter, exhaust and remap, like a lot of places claim.
The engine is already 'modified' from the factory (it was originally used in the Espace and laguna with around 138bhp) so to get genuine power is actually quite tough.
Suspension.
Wishbone bushes get old, and tie rods wear as do ball joints - a refresh with genuine parts make a world of difference to how they drive and handle.
If you get wheel alignment done and find the rear axle isn't quite straight, this is quite common - you can try and straighten them but most leave them as it's normally only a slight amount.
also it makes a HUGE difference on suspension age - a 172 with worn shockers, worn wishbone bushes and play in track rods and ball joints will be horrid - drive a refreshed model and it is literally night and day - I cannot emphasise this enough.
Model differences.
I could do into every detail here but I won't bore you, so the basics:
2000-2001 ph1 172
2001-2004 ph2 172
2004-2005 182
You had a few different models of each, the ph1 getting the Exclusive models, which were numbered to 172 sold in the UK, they had different wheels, a full leather interior and painted Scarab green - mechanically the same.
The ph2 offered the Cup version - this is the most 'factory modified' version of the RS and a basic run down of its differences are:
Only available in blue and silver
No air con (though you could spec it as an option)
no leather
less sound proofing
16 inch speedline tunrini alloys
stiffer shockers
different spring rates
non tinted glass
non-heat relective front screen
wishbones that offered better castor
no ABS
no TC
no cruise control
no xenon headlights
Larger rear spoiler
front splitter
'matched' inlets (from the factory the upper and lower inlet holes were not matched - for the 172 Cup Renault made 'RS' inlets which have RS stamped in the lower section which were matched to offer a little more power - fitting these or matching your standard one may net you a few hp depending on how bad your old ones were, but it tends to smooth out the power delivery a little, though you would be lucky to notice right away)
In total it lost 89kg of weight compared to the normal 172.
Also the braking system was different as the rears did very little work - there is a letter from VOSA you can print off if your MOT station fails a Cup on rear brakes being crap.
There was a 182 Cup, but this only lost 20kg compared to the normal version, so you could have the best of both worlds and buy a 'normal' 182 with the cup packs fitted - this let you keep your creature comforts and have the better suspension and spoiler and splitter from the cup models.
Then we have the 182 Trophy. I am sure you are aware, these are the (limted to 500 uk cars) model that have the famous remote reservoir dampers but we wont go any more as you wont get them for a grand.
They do suffer with other problems such as 182 engine wiring looms have been known to dry out and go brittle causing random misfires, UCH boxes playing up (the brain that runs the non engine part of the car), plus immobiliser faults but nothing you wouldn't expect of the age.
In short, they are fantastic cars and are really good fun. A lot are being bought for track use as you will struggle to go faster for the money.
I would advise if you want a cheap one, ignore the model differences and simply get the best you can find for your cash - if you drive each different model back to back you would notice a slight difference but overall (especially if you're looking to modify) they are all great fun to drive and it's much more important to find a good base car than worry about the extra power from a 182 (when in reality I have driven plenty of 172's that were faster than 182's i've driven).
I would advise the following being important when looking at one:
Cambelt and aux belt
body damage (this can be hard as they didn't always have great fit from the factory and its common for front wings and front and rear bumpers to look a slightly different colour due to them being plastic)
any play in the steering
a knocking going on and off throttle/engine flopping about (the lower mount or dogbone bushes fail and this causes the knocking, while top mount and gearbox mount get old meaning you get engine slack - you can adjust the top mount about a bit which can help this)
Make sure no depahser noise
Apart from that, get it and enjoy it! they handle fantastic when refreshed and have plenty enough go.
I hope that helps a little, I have skipped over a lot of model differences and other trick bits as I don't want to bore you all but if I can be of any more help just ask.
Edited by Russ_16v on Friday 27th January 16:56
I now own a 172 cup, totally original, I am the second owner.
However on my car the lower inlet manifold does not seem to be RS stamped, so was the RS stamped lower inlet manifold maybe only on the later 172 cup cars? Mine is a 52 plate.
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