RE: Preuninger: Porsche is not a hedge fund
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
The car that DK have sold...
If it's a "physical car", why do those stripes look so badly photoshopped on? The pic on their "spec" PDF is not much better.
It's a (bad) screengrab from the official press pics which featured the same car, so No - it's not the actual, physical car they were selling.If it's a "physical car", why do those stripes look so badly photoshopped on? The pic on their "spec" PDF is not much better.
STiG911 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
The car that DK have sold...
If it's a "physical car", why do those stripes look so badly photoshopped on? The pic on their "spec" PDF is not much better.
It's a (bad) screengrab from the official press pics which featured the same car, so No - it's not the actual, physical car they were selling.If it's a "physical car", why do those stripes look so badly photoshopped on? The pic on their "spec" PDF is not much better.
Engineer and public face of GT cars or not, AP is talking b
ks and he must know it. The whole Porsche PR machine appears geared up to promoting high end, on the face of it good value supercars (GT3s and Rs) that you can't buy. Yes I get that it's totally a first world problem but if you want a tactile, reasonably reliable NA supercar that you can track occasionally and use for vaguely practical stuff, Porsche's offering is basically the only game in town if only they'd sell the damn thing. Even if the 911R (and GT3) was a mainstream model like the GT3s used to be (rather than unobtanium) there's got to be loads of people on PH alone who'd happily get into one for £120-130K, drive it for a couple of years and get out of it with regular Porsche residuals. I'd be in line. Sold my 997 GT3 as it wasn't road biased enough, and I have no interest in the new turbo Carreras.
That said, 911R aside, my understanding is that the undersupply is a uniquely UK thing. From memory there were plenty of GT3 build slots available on the continent for LHD cars after the initial furore
ks and he must know it. The whole Porsche PR machine appears geared up to promoting high end, on the face of it good value supercars (GT3s and Rs) that you can't buy. Yes I get that it's totally a first world problem but if you want a tactile, reasonably reliable NA supercar that you can track occasionally and use for vaguely practical stuff, Porsche's offering is basically the only game in town if only they'd sell the damn thing. Even if the 911R (and GT3) was a mainstream model like the GT3s used to be (rather than unobtanium) there's got to be loads of people on PH alone who'd happily get into one for £120-130K, drive it for a couple of years and get out of it with regular Porsche residuals. I'd be in line. Sold my 997 GT3 as it wasn't road biased enough, and I have no interest in the new turbo Carreras.That said, 911R aside, my understanding is that the undersupply is a uniquely UK thing. From memory there were plenty of GT3 build slots available on the continent for LHD cars after the initial furore
BigDave3243 said:
Wa wa wa, the big bad Porsche men won't let me buy their car. Wa wa wa. I'll just have to console myself by spending my £140k on something else and then b***h about it on the internet.
Dry your eyes ladies.
Because maybe people want to buy a 911R and can't and are a little frustrated. I agree some people take this a little to much to heart, but it's not rocket science. Dry your eyes ladies.
Roma101 said:
BigDave3243 said:
Wa wa wa, the big bad Porsche men won't let me buy their car. Wa wa wa. I'll just have to console myself by spending my £140k on something else and then b***h about it on the internet.
Dry your eyes ladies.
Because maybe people want to buy a 911R and can't and are a little frustrated. I agree some people take this a little to much to heart, but it's not rocket science. Dry your eyes ladies.
marcosgt said:
Then why, Herr Preuninger, do you insist on building limited run specials?
To protect brand exclusivity, exactly the reason why Ferrari decided a few years ago to reduce production numbers! The difference with Porsche is that the he customer base is broad, they are selling 918's to compete with the P1 and La Ferrari, but then they are also selling 718's and Cayennes to compete with Z4's and X5's. This diverse range of cars seems to confuse the market and portray Porsche as a volume brand where supply should always meet demand, which it isn't.Similar story with Aston Martin, the GT8 sold out pretty quick. Furthermore, they are now selling for grossly more than the overs commanded on the GT4, GT3 and GT3 RS! Despite this, you don't see threads complaining about the 2nd hand prices and the 'supposedly' underhand deals made by the dealers. Its seems to be accepted that this is okay for Aston to preserve Brand exclusivity and limit production, but not for Porsche!
I for one am gutted that I wont be able to buy a 991 R at list, but Im more than happy to accept that I wont be seeing a "OMG I've just bought a 991 R..." vlog anytime soon either.
n17ves said:
marcosgt said:
Then why, Herr Preuninger, do you insist on building limited run specials?
To protect brand exclusivity, exactly the reason why Ferrari decided a few years ago to reduce production numbers! The difference with Porsche is that the he customer base is broad, they are selling 918's to compete with the P1 and La Ferrari, but then they are also selling 718's and Cayennes to compete with Z4's and X5's. This diverse range of cars seems to confuse the market and portray Porsche as a volume brand where supply should always meet demand, which it isn't.Similar story with Aston Martin, the GT8 sold out pretty quick. Furthermore, they are now selling for grossly more than the overs commanded on the GT4, GT3 and GT3 RS! Despite this, you don't see threads complaining about the 2nd hand prices and the 'supposedly' underhand deals made by the dealers. Its seems to be accepted that this is okay for Aston to preserve Brand exclusivity and limit production, but not for Porsche!
I for one am gutted that I wont be able to buy a 991 R at list, but Im more than happy to accept that I wont be seeing a "OMG I've just bought a 991 R..." vlog anytime soon either.
Massive 1st world problem I know but if I was one of the Porsche customers who had bought 7 or 8 new cars from them over several years and wasn't allocated a car only to hen see 'better valued' customers flip them then I'd be a bit pi$$ed as well.
n17ves said:
To protect brand exclusivity, exactly the reason why Ferrari decided a few years ago to reduce production numbers!
Brand exclusivity? Porsche isn't exactly Ferrari. They sold over 225.000 Porsches last year. Hardly exclusive, now is it. The average guy on the street won't differentiate a 911R from a boggo C2 so that argument doesn't stand either. The overall market for GT3/4/R cars is limited anyway so why not build as many as you can sell?Edited by Vee12V on Monday 13th February 16:34
Davey S2 said:
n17ves said:
marcosgt said:
Then why, Herr Preuninger, do you insist on building limited run specials?
To protect brand exclusivity, exactly the reason why Ferrari decided a few years ago to reduce production numbers! The difference with Porsche is that the he customer base is broad, they are selling 918's to compete with the P1 and La Ferrari, but then they are also selling 718's and Cayennes to compete with Z4's and X5's. This diverse range of cars seems to confuse the market and portray Porsche as a volume brand where supply should always meet demand, which it isn't.Similar story with Aston Martin, the GT8 sold out pretty quick. Furthermore, they are now selling for grossly more than the overs commanded on the GT4, GT3 and GT3 RS! Despite this, you don't see threads complaining about the 2nd hand prices and the 'supposedly' underhand deals made by the dealers. Its seems to be accepted that this is okay for Aston to preserve Brand exclusivity and limit production, but not for Porsche!
I for one am gutted that I wont be able to buy a 991 R at list, but Im more than happy to accept that I wont be seeing a "OMG I've just bought a 991 R..." vlog anytime soon either.
Porsche cant control second have values, but they will try to preserve the brand and sell to the people that aren't just caught up in the overs. Same goes for Aston and any other marque that maybe selling a rare car that's in high demand. I just don't think its fair Porsche get so much stick for it.
Edited by n17ves on Monday 13th February 16:38
Just a thought, and before I'm shot down in flames, I don't know enough about Porsche's production facilities.......
But..... Porsche are now approaching "volume" production status, thus the niche models need to be fitted into production schedules for the "cooking" models. Presumably the margins a better on the volume cars (?) - certainly some niche models have historically been loss-leaders. Thus Porsche could certainly produce the niche models in greater numbers but it might be at the expense of the higher volume models with an attendant negative impact on profitability.
Keeping production numbers low on the niche models has the perceived added bonus of protecting / enhancing brand value, but ultimately the decision on production number may come down to cold, hard, profitability considerations more than anything more Machiavelian.
I'm completely willing to be told otherwise, but it sounds plausible to me.........
But..... Porsche are now approaching "volume" production status, thus the niche models need to be fitted into production schedules for the "cooking" models. Presumably the margins a better on the volume cars (?) - certainly some niche models have historically been loss-leaders. Thus Porsche could certainly produce the niche models in greater numbers but it might be at the expense of the higher volume models with an attendant negative impact on profitability.
Keeping production numbers low on the niche models has the perceived added bonus of protecting / enhancing brand value, but ultimately the decision on production number may come down to cold, hard, profitability considerations more than anything more Machiavelian.
I'm completely willing to be told otherwise, but it sounds plausible to me.........
BigDave3243 said:
Roma101 said:
BigDave3243 said:
Wa wa wa, the big bad Porsche men won't let me buy their car. Wa wa wa. I'll just have to console myself by spending my £140k on something else and then b***h about it on the internet.
Dry your eyes ladies.
Because maybe people want to buy a 911R and can't and are a little frustrated. I agree some people take this a little to much to heart, but it's not rocket science. Dry your eyes ladies.
ks, IMHO. "Oh, I just wanted to buy that R and put thousands of miles on it and track it and to hell with the value....". Aye, whatever. You are just pissed off because you wanted to be quids in to the tune of £300k.And who wouldn't be?? Pretty sure I would stomach the finance payments for a few months, if I then trousered £300k....
Edited by PhantomPH on Monday 13th February 17:14
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Unfortunately a lot of cars were flipped, but there were also a lot that were not flipped! As I've said in previous threads, those that flipped will be black listed. I can see why you have formed your opinion, but it is an ill formed opinion. I mean do you even know who at your local OPC received a 991 R to make such a statement? My other half works for Porsche and has some insight into this, which confirms some of your comments are so far off the mark. Jamie Summers said:
Just a thought, and before I'm shot down in flames, I don't know enough about Porsche's production facilities.......
But..... Porsche are now approaching "volume" production status, thus the niche models need to be fitted into production schedules for the "cooking" models. Presumably the margins a better on the volume cars (?) - certainly some niche models have historically been loss-leaders. Thus Porsche could certainly produce the niche models in greater numbers but it might be at the expense of the higher volume models with an attendant negative impact on profitability.
Keeping production numbers low on the niche models has the perceived added bonus of protecting / enhancing brand value, but ultimately the decision on production number may come down to cold, hard, profitability considerations more than anything more Machiavelian.
I'm completely willing to be told otherwise, but it sounds plausible to me.........
Except for one minor detail. The volume Porsches are not built in Stuttgart. The Mac and PanawBut..... Porsche are now approaching "volume" production status, thus the niche models need to be fitted into production schedules for the "cooking" models. Presumably the margins a better on the volume cars (?) - certainly some niche models have historically been loss-leaders. Thus Porsche could certainly produce the niche models in greater numbers but it might be at the expense of the higher volume models with an attendant negative impact on profitability.
Keeping production numbers low on the niche models has the perceived added bonus of protecting / enhancing brand value, but ultimately the decision on production number may come down to cold, hard, profitability considerations more than anything more Machiavelian.
I'm completely willing to be told otherwise, but it sounds plausible to me.........
ka are built in Leipzig, the Cayenne's built by VW in Bratislava then finished in Leipzig. Boxsters and Caymans are built by VW in Osnabruck as well as Stuttgart, now they're no longer built by Valmet in Finland.If they built more 911Rs, or the like, it'd probably be roughly the same overall 911 production figures.
PhantomPH said:
BigDave3243 said:
Roma101 said:
BigDave3243 said:
Wa wa wa, the big bad Porsche men won't let me buy their car. Wa wa wa. I'll just have to console myself by spending my £140k on something else and then b***h about it on the internet.
Dry your eyes ladies.
Because maybe people want to buy a 911R and can't and are a little frustrated. I agree some people take this a little to much to heart, but it's not rocket science. Dry your eyes ladies.
ks, IMHO. "Oh, I just wanted to but that R and put thousands of miles on it and track it and to hell with the value....". Aye, whatever. You are just pissed off because you wanted to be quids in to the tune of £300k.And who wouldn't be?? Pretty sure I would stomach the finance payments for a few months, if I then trousered £300k....
I'm sure a 911R is great to drive but if anyone really thinks they are worth over £400K they're mad. We're currently in a massive car bubble which can't go on for ever and as last time round some people will get badly burnt.
Why do Porsche care about residuals? They don't derive any benefit from 2nd hand sales.
I'm sure that there are more than enough genuine enthusiasts who do want to buy 911R, GT3 / RS cars to actually drive and enjoy rather than just try and make £200K on to fill the existing production numbers.
Open the order books for 3 months and in that time whoever orders one and stumps up a hefty deposit gets one.
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