Cars you are too young to ever love/understand
Discussion
Vitorio said:
ChilliWhizz said:
Regardless of how young you are, if you want to be a true petrolhead, you have to understand what these were/are all about.... 
That list is rather UK centric though, id call myself a petrolhead, but i cant even name all of those.- snip*
I very much get the appeal of the mini, DB5, e-type etc... but i dont know every single 60s small british roadster (nor would i be charmed by them by default)
If we're doing a "you have to get this to be PH" list, id argue something like this belongs on there as well:
The styling might be appeal to everyone, nor might the 4 door fastback bodyshape, but drive one and youll understand.
at the end? And I have driven one......
BL products for me, and that includes the later rover ones as well.
Really can't understand the love for the mgbs, spitfires, dolomites, rover sd1s etc. I've avoided certain classic car mags for years as they're basically a love in for BL products.
Mid 80's and 90's fords. Utter, utter s
te. Only the escort cosworth and puma can hold their heads high from that time. And I speak from experience having worked at a ford dealership at the time.
And another vote for the defender here as well. I strongly suspect the love for these is entirely down to the british masochistic tendency. Should have been killed in the late 60's and replaced with a proper workhorse. I now fully expect to be flamed within an inch of my life for daring to bad mouth the defender on pistonlandieheads.
Really can't understand the love for the mgbs, spitfires, dolomites, rover sd1s etc. I've avoided certain classic car mags for years as they're basically a love in for BL products.
Mid 80's and 90's fords. Utter, utter s
te. Only the escort cosworth and puma can hold their heads high from that time. And I speak from experience having worked at a ford dealership at the time.And another vote for the defender here as well. I strongly suspect the love for these is entirely down to the british masochistic tendency. Should have been killed in the late 60's and replaced with a proper workhorse. I now fully expect to be flamed within an inch of my life for daring to bad mouth the defender on pistonlandieheads.
colin_p said:
A note or public information post to all you mid 20's nippers.
You will get older, you will slowly, surely and inevitably turn into your Dad. It cannot be stopped.
You will get older, you will slowly, surely and inevitably turn into your Dad. It cannot be stopped.
I had noticed this by the time I was 25. I'm 32 now and I'm essentially my dad with (slightly) less aches and pains. Back to the original topic. Nope. I have an appreciation for most cars from before my time.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
There were loads, just not as well known. Renault 21 Turbo and Mercedes Cosworth come to mind.
Hi - yes there were a few models that didn't look that much different to their cooking version brothers and were a bit faster but few of them had the chance of being THAT much faster like the cossie. I remember a friend of mine who had his cosworth 4x4 running at 2 bar (30psi) of boost and thinking he was top dog till someone turned up with a Rouse engine running a proper T4 and utterly wiped him above 100mph. Not only was the cossie faster than its cooking model equivalent sierra, but it had the chance of being unbelievably fast for that time frame and you never knew till you saw it in action. It could be a badly badly running cossie that looked quite okay, or it could be an insanely fast cossie that looked bad.. To me, that was the fun....and in all my years of being in to cars I have never seen a real 500bhp r21 or merc cosworth. Yes, slightly faster than std, but never real weapon material. Does that make better sense?
Edited by Steven_RW on Wednesday 15th February 11:03
OK, I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who has just celebrated his 65th birthday (yes, the government is now paying me to stay alive ).
First of all, I never cease to be amazed at how collectable certain cars have become that at the time I regarded as rubbish and which haven't improved any with age. Objectively, modern cars are better products in almost every measurable way but, as has been said, that's missing the point. In some cases it is the very flaws in older cars that make them a challenge which, when mastered, provide a measure of satisfaction you just don't get from a modern car. And one or two things really were better, notably the steering. Again, this is not true of all older cars by any means but I'm thinking in particular of Issigonis designs, from the Morris Minor through the Mini, 1100/1300 and 1800. All had unassisted rack and pinion with quite high gearing and - crucially - running on narrow tyres with steering geometry set up to suit. They all provded a measure of feedback that perhaps only Lotus and Caterham achieve these days. I would add MGs to that list, especially the Midget. By modern standards grip was minimal but that is to miss the point. You could feel exactly what the front wheels were doing through your fingertips.
Nostalgia is the driving force of course, typified as a desire to own again the cars you were familiar with in your youth. These might be cars your parents owned, bangers that you could just about afford when you first started driving or simply cars of the time you lusted over but couldn't afford (especially when there was a motor sport connection, cf Ford Escorts).
The great thing is, there are no rules on this; we're all free to enjoy whatever old cars appeal for whatever reason, or not! Many were highly amused a couple of years ago when the 'car show' organised at our Le Mans Classic camp site, which included all kinds of exotica, was won by the popular vote for a pristine Austin Allegro 1.3. As the French proprietor said: "it must be your British sense of humour!". Quite so!
).First of all, I never cease to be amazed at how collectable certain cars have become that at the time I regarded as rubbish and which haven't improved any with age. Objectively, modern cars are better products in almost every measurable way but, as has been said, that's missing the point. In some cases it is the very flaws in older cars that make them a challenge which, when mastered, provide a measure of satisfaction you just don't get from a modern car. And one or two things really were better, notably the steering. Again, this is not true of all older cars by any means but I'm thinking in particular of Issigonis designs, from the Morris Minor through the Mini, 1100/1300 and 1800. All had unassisted rack and pinion with quite high gearing and - crucially - running on narrow tyres with steering geometry set up to suit. They all provded a measure of feedback that perhaps only Lotus and Caterham achieve these days. I would add MGs to that list, especially the Midget. By modern standards grip was minimal but that is to miss the point. You could feel exactly what the front wheels were doing through your fingertips.
Nostalgia is the driving force of course, typified as a desire to own again the cars you were familiar with in your youth. These might be cars your parents owned, bangers that you could just about afford when you first started driving or simply cars of the time you lusted over but couldn't afford (especially when there was a motor sport connection, cf Ford Escorts).
The great thing is, there are no rules on this; we're all free to enjoy whatever old cars appeal for whatever reason, or not! Many were highly amused a couple of years ago when the 'car show' organised at our Le Mans Classic camp site, which included all kinds of exotica, was won by the popular vote for a pristine Austin Allegro 1.3. As the French proprietor said: "it must be your British sense of humour!". Quite so!
Carfield said:
Black S2K said:
LJKS predicted (correctly in my view) that the golden age for cars would be those around 1990-2000, where they were properly-built, yet not de-sensitised and wrought overweight by all the safety and emission nannies.
I suspect that something like the E39 5 series is probably the point at which you have everything you need (doesn't really rust, reliable, safe enough, ABS, air con etc etc) and not very much of what you don't - cable throttle, (relatively) simple engine, HVAC and audio still discrete systems, weight not gone completely loopy etc. Alot of cars in that era rather lost their charm in the following generation in my view.- nods vigorously* (even though my E39 has an electric throttle, being a 530i rather than a 528i)
bristolracer said:
I think many are missing the point.
You need to see these cars in context
Example
E type 1961 yes 1961 we didn't even know who the Beatles were and WHAM the e type arrives.
Enzo Ferrari calls it 'the most beautiful car ever made' and it costs a third of one of his. Post war Britain rationing only ended 3 years before , we were heading into a new age, the real Cool Britannia. Carnaby street the mini etc and the e type. It was big big news,it even caused speed limits to be imposed on our newly built motorways.
Example
The MGB
The original MX5 a sports car available to the masses
Example
The ford escort, a decent family car for the time, ford backed motorsport heavily ' win on Sunday sell on Monday '
Example
Beetle/mini/2cv
Cheap cheap, it's how many many families got on the road.
So you may not like them but it doesn't alter the fact that most of them were relevant, and for that they deserve respect.
Put them into context don't judge them using a new car criteria.
I totally get that all of the examples were a big deal for their time and I can fully acknowledge that they were important steps in making the motor car what it is today....but I still don't want to own any of them, especially not for the crazy prices some of the examples go for.You need to see these cars in context
Example
E type 1961 yes 1961 we didn't even know who the Beatles were and WHAM the e type arrives.
Enzo Ferrari calls it 'the most beautiful car ever made' and it costs a third of one of his. Post war Britain rationing only ended 3 years before , we were heading into a new age, the real Cool Britannia. Carnaby street the mini etc and the e type. It was big big news,it even caused speed limits to be imposed on our newly built motorways.
Example
The MGB
The original MX5 a sports car available to the masses
Example
The ford escort, a decent family car for the time, ford backed motorsport heavily ' win on Sunday sell on Monday '
Example
Beetle/mini/2cv
Cheap cheap, it's how many many families got on the road.
So you may not like them but it doesn't alter the fact that most of them were relevant, and for that they deserve respect.
Put them into context don't judge them using a new car criteria.
I think it also has to do with what era you hit your driving age. I got my license at the beginning of the 90's so the 80's\90's is the period for me which holds the most interest in terms of cars I lusted after. Anything before that time mostly doesn't interest me as I have no personal connection. Luckily for me that was the best era for cars.
gdaybruce said:
Good stuff I agree with
We still have a 1983 ford escort. Yes cars have moved on a million miles however with everything in tip top condition, the steering as you say, is miles more engaging and with greater feel. It has 155 wide 13" wheels so the grip levels are low but that is the fun, tip toeing your way through a complex set of bends and holding all the speed you can as you don't have the bhp to make it up. It takes skill and confidence to make good progress and that is fun on the basis the steering tells you what grip you really have.It isn't nostalgia from memory for me as such, as I am actually still driving the car from time to time, so get to test the proof.
RW
Hugo a Gogo said:
blueg33 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
why is a VW bus dearer than an old Commer or Bedford CF?
Wannabe surf culture posersI can guarantee that most drivers of VW busses done up as surf wagons wouldn't know the difference between a California nose rider and a fish, a close out and a clean up etc
As soon as I saw this thread on the front page I thought "E-type, yuk", the MK2 is even worse.
When I was a teenager and forming opinions on things I always saw them as the Citizen Kane of Cars. "What's the best film ever made?" Correct answer "Citizen Kane" ever seen it? "No, it's black and white". What the best-looking car ever made? "E-Type" but I have to admit that real people who really care about cars, really do like them, I still don’t know why, back then they were probably about as cheap as they ever were, not very loved at all – they were always owned by dirty old men.
The wheels seem to so far inboard it’s verging on being a motorbike, the cabin is where the boot should be, it’s got wire wheels like a pram and chrome, so much chrome – when I was a lad chrome was like automotive horse brasses, just revolting.
Doesn’t mean I’m right of course, it’s just an opinion – back then, being a dyed in the wool VW GTI fan I wouldn’t be seen dead in an Escort, not that I was alone, MK1 and MK2 Escorts were worthless, even the cool ones weren’t cool anymore. I sort of begrudgingly like them now. Not the Mk3 onwards though, I wouldn’t piss on one if it were on fire, I’m aware some people feel that’s unfair, but back in the 90s Mk3 and 4 Escorts were driven by people called Wayne who fingered their 14 year old girlfriends in the back of their stickered up, RS badged, XR3is. The less said about the XR2 the better or so Golf driver said / thought.
Classic Minis – why…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] the…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] hell…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] would anyone want to drive something so tiny that rides so terribly and has a bakelite NHS glasses type interior? Oh they handle so well, I’m not sure that was every really true, they just never got up to a speed to trouble the tyres.
MGs, all of them, I can’t think of a single MG product I liked from the old rot boxes to the last brightly coloured 80s saloons they sold in the 2000s, I always thought they were too apologetic.
Has that offended enough people yet I wonder?
When I was a teenager and forming opinions on things I always saw them as the Citizen Kane of Cars. "What's the best film ever made?" Correct answer "Citizen Kane" ever seen it? "No, it's black and white". What the best-looking car ever made? "E-Type" but I have to admit that real people who really care about cars, really do like them, I still don’t know why, back then they were probably about as cheap as they ever were, not very loved at all – they were always owned by dirty old men.
The wheels seem to so far inboard it’s verging on being a motorbike, the cabin is where the boot should be, it’s got wire wheels like a pram and chrome, so much chrome – when I was a lad chrome was like automotive horse brasses, just revolting.
Doesn’t mean I’m right of course, it’s just an opinion – back then, being a dyed in the wool VW GTI fan I wouldn’t be seen dead in an Escort, not that I was alone, MK1 and MK2 Escorts were worthless, even the cool ones weren’t cool anymore. I sort of begrudgingly like them now. Not the Mk3 onwards though, I wouldn’t piss on one if it were on fire, I’m aware some people feel that’s unfair, but back in the 90s Mk3 and 4 Escorts were driven by people called Wayne who fingered their 14 year old girlfriends in the back of their stickered up, RS badged, XR3is. The less said about the XR2 the better or so Golf driver said / thought.
Classic Minis – why…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] the…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] hell…. [BANGS HEAD ON ROOF] would anyone want to drive something so tiny that rides so terribly and has a bakelite NHS glasses type interior? Oh they handle so well, I’m not sure that was every really true, they just never got up to a speed to trouble the tyres.
MGs, all of them, I can’t think of a single MG product I liked from the old rot boxes to the last brightly coloured 80s saloons they sold in the 2000s, I always thought they were too apologetic.
Has that offended enough people yet I wonder?
Edited by P-Jay on Wednesday 15th February 16:14
Great post, I think sometimes a lot of it is people jumping on the bandwagon or because it's the "right" answer if you don't want to seem like the oddball who doesn't stick to the accepted wisdom but it always had a whiff of emperors new clothes about it to me. Not many people have the courage to say, actually a lot of the iconic classic cars are pretty rubbish to be honest.
996_C2 said:
For me, I don't get the new VW van thing. The old one, I understand. There's a culture behind it, with loads of memories etc. Not for me, but fair enough.. The newer ones just look like a workman's van. I don't get it.
There's a couple of things in VW's favour.Yes, it's a Van - but that's the appeal so people need a Van for work, some people want a van for leisure. It's not just surfers lots of people who have hobbies that need big bits of kit moving about like vans.
For a long time Transit was the obvious choice, cheap(ish) come in a million different configurations to suit your needs, cheap to run, a good reliable work tool.
But say you're a really good workman and you want a Van with nicer seats, a nice car-like interior, car-like seats, things like sat-nav, CD player (we're going back a bit here 10-15 years). Well Transits hadn't changed much in years, grey plastic, the same crappy radios they put in 80s and 90s Fiestas, no power steering for the most part, hose down, grey plastic. Renault, Vauxhall, Nissan et al were all chasing the Transit market share and pretty much sold Transit type vehicles.
VW was slightly different because you could have all sorts of car-like options because they'd been making Caravelles and Day-Vans either in-house or via 3rd parties since the old buses all that stuff already existed in their factories. They worked out that even Electricians liked Air-Con, and why not, Tradespeople can earn good salaries (this may be news to some corners of PH) if a Middle manger can't live without climate in his 5 series, why should Dave the 100k a year earning plumber. Mercedes also offered car-like Vans, but they had a reputation for rusting bodies, they cost a lot more and yes they didn't have the same VW cool van thing that VW had since the 60s.
When they launched the Sportline vans with alloy wheels and metallic colour coded bodies they took the Posh Van market.
It's almost gone full circle now, they're so popular people who don't even want / need a van are buying them - second row of seats for the family and it's "so practical".
Have you seen the price of some of them? The California Camper STARTS at £40k, and they're the slowest depreciating vehicle sold in the UK at the moment.
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