RE: SEAT Leon Cupra 300: Review

[AliZ4C]

I take it the following drop of 1.1 secs in the 0-60 time of DSG version of the 4WD ST is a typo?

0-62mph: 6.0sec (4.9sec)

[Yipper]

How come journalists say rearwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like BMW M2, are exciting... but frontwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like the Leon, are annoying... It makes one wonder if journalists are just telling people what they want to hear

[framerateuk]

AliZ4C said:

I take it the following drop of 1.1 secs in the 0-60 time of DSG version of the 4WD ST is a typo?

0-62mph: 6.0sec (4.9sec)

Probably not, since it's comparing manual FWD vs Auto 4WD.

[GTEYE]

Yipper said:

How come journalists say rearwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like BMW M2, are exciting... but frontwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like the Leon, are annoying... It makes one wonder if journalists are just telling people what they want to hear

I think its because in the FWD all that scrabbling is transmitted back through the steering wheel, obviously not in RWD...

[Dale Lomas]

Great to read the review, and nice to see the 300hp golf-r map make it to the Cupra. As a Cupra 280 ST owner with aftermarket bits, I can confirm that the horrendous axle tramp can be eliminated with more solid engine and gearbox mounts, at the cost of a little more cabin noise.

BUT why do we have to turn to the aftermarket for this? The Golf Clubsport also has a lot of power, with a FWD VAQ setup, and has no such issue. Was it an NVH issue with the Cupra on the same mounts? Or a Teutonic two-finger salute to the Spanish hillbilly cousins?

At the price I paid in 2015 (€37k discounted to a little under €30k, or roughly £21k at the time) the Cupra 280 was the undisputed king of the performance bargain MQB platform. Quicker than a Golf R on track, a little bit of a handful on the road.

If a massive discount isn't easily found, there's no way the Cupra 300 can enjoy that same reputation. It'll just be an also-ran, a black sheep option for the perennial man-who-must-be-different.

As for the ST AWD thingy, this is clearly just reducing costs by platform sharing with the Golf R. Lots of stuff at the back axle is a little cheaper on the Golf R wagon, for example the exhaust on the wagon is not valved like the hatchback and it's a very similar system. The AWD will make for a totally awesome drive on road though. Wet conditions and horrific axle tramp do detract from the fun at times. Mine is something like 340hp, with a full (quiet) 2.75inch Milltek exhaust from turbo back.

I'm still happy I got my FWD manual Leon wagon, and now this option is dead I feel like I should hold on to it a little longer! Values have held on remarkably well for the wagon here in Germany.

[Dale Lomas]

GTEYE said:

Yipper said:

How come journalists say rearwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like BMW M2, are exciting... but frontwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like the Leon, are annoying... It makes one wonder if journalists are just telling people what they want to hear

I think its because in the FWD all that scrabbling is transmitted back through the steering wheel, obviously not in RWD...

Because not many RWD cars these days get axle tramp. Axle tramp is where the axle moves up and down very quickly during wheelspin. The M2 (and every BMW I've driven after the E30) won't do that unless they've got damaged or knackered bushes. But the brand-new SEAT does tramp something horrific.

Some axle tramp on show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVQ5iZQTQJI

Edited by Dale Lomas on Wednesday 15th February 14:08

[Itsallicanafford]

D200 said:

This would completely depend on what hot hatch you have?

I also suppose while these are termed as 'hot hatches' if comparing to a 90's hatch they are more comparable to stuff like an Escort Cosworth or Lancia Delta Integrale etc [being 4WD and Turbo and of similar kerb weights]

106 rallye

[Onehp]

Wet greasy and worn cup 2's isn't ideal now is it. But with that power on the front, tyres become very important and you are forced to adapt to the surface. Which is part of the fun.

The axle or actually wheel tramp is unforgivable, first thing I got was a bottom engine mount insert (powerflex has a full range).

One thing I don't get is the "the VW is a much, much nicer environment than the SEAT". Yes quality is a bit better on a few details but otherwise my Cupra has been flawless. And sitting in the VW, I just don't see what is supposedly so nice about the design. Much more shiny plastic, lower mounted screen? Nothing I would value, rather the opposite.

[StarmistBlue400]

I am well pleased with my 290 Black. OK so there is bugger all traction in this weather and I have a really irritating rattle but....

I am paying £275 per month inc VAT on a 2yr 10K per year deal, its loaded with kit, reasonable on MPG, looks good, has great seats and goes like stink. Its a bargain. Would I have wanted a 135i or Golf R? Of course I would but the lease deals were not as good.

Im not sure its a car you would lust after but for me it was a no brainer.

People don't know what it is ether so it really catches people out.

[Dan Trent]

Yipper said:

How come journalists say rearwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like BMW M2, are exciting... but frontwheel cars that spin their tyres and hop and skip all over the road, like the Leon, are annoying... It makes one wonder if journalists are just telling people what they want to hear

Axle tramp is equally unpleasant whether it's on the front or the rear wheels. OK, perhaps a little more unpleasant on the front because you can feel it through the wheel. Wheelspin is something very different. But, I'd argue, more exploitable/fun on a rear-driven car than a front-drive one, unless for some bizarre reason you prefer power understeer to power oversteer. Each to their own and all that.

And for all you conspiracy theorists out there the equivalent front-driven hot Golfs get an 'anti-tramp' system as standard that, for whatever reason, isn't included when they ship the powertrain to SEAT. Funny that, eh!

As per the story driving with everything off does help smooth the power delivery a tad and help with the judder issue. Inevitably swapping lead boots for something a little more nuanced makes the biggest difference though. Hat tip to Dale for the insight on more substantial solutions to the problem but in the standard car it's still very easy to trigger, wet or dry. And pretty unpleasant.

Which explains why VW has a system to stop it happening on the Golf...

Dan

[SteA]

Is the traction really that bad? I have a MkII Leon Cupra R with 315 bhp and even without an LSD I have no real issues getting the power down on wet, greasy roads. It has Michelin Pilot Supersports and castor bushes / KW ARBs, but that's about it. I was going to change to a 280 this summer and I was hoping for more grip especially as I am planning a remap...

[alock]

Onehp said:

One thing I don't get is the "the VW is a much, much nicer environment than the SEAT". Yes quality is a bit better on a few details but otherwise my Cupra has been flawless. And sitting in the VW, I just don't see what is supposedly so nice about the design. Much more shiny plastic, lower mounted screen? Nothing I would value, rather the opposite.

I don't understand it either.

[Dale487]

Onehp said:

Wet greasy and worn cup 2's isn't ideal now is it. But with that power on the front, tyres become very important and you are forced to adapt to the surface. Which is part of the fun.

The axle or actually wheel tramp is unforgivable, first thing I got was a bottom engine mount insert (powerflex has a full range).

One thing I don't get is the "the VW is a much, much nicer environment than the SEAT". Yes quality is a bit better on a few details but otherwise my Cupra has been flawless. And sitting in the VW, I just don't see what is supposedly so nice about the design. Much more shiny plastic, lower mounted screen? Nothing I would value, rather the opposite.

One review pointed out that the Leon dashboard architecture is better than the Golf - centre console angled towards the driver, a la BMW E30 and the SAT NAV sits higher up in the dash between the vents, less distance to move your eyes.

I personally think the seats & red stitch detailing in the FR are nicer to look at than the white in the Cupra (but thats personal opinion & I'm bias as I have an FR). But I think the standard tartan seats in the Golf GTI are better looking than either the leather options or the Golf R seats.

I don't think anyone can fault what you get for your money with a SEAT Leon (of any model) compared to a Golf, more so as an used buy (let the first owner take the hit) - but if VW made a Golf GTI estate (particularly with the deals on the last of the MK7 Golf you could get in January); I'd have plumbed for that instead of a Leon FR ST (I don't do the mileage to justify a diesel, prefer petrol and manuals but need the space for the family).

[Jonno02]

I actually hate the chrome in the golf. Chrome is so cheap and tacky. I wish ford would also realise this.

[JB5]

I've had a 290 for about a year now. Love the performance, in particular how the engine comes "on song" between 4,500 and 6,500 rpm, which is when you get the big performance difference between this and a Golf GTI (identical torque curves up to 4,500). On dual carriageways and fast A roads, this car just flies. 272km/h on the clock on the AutoBahn. But....

---

on a greasy B road in winter the car struggles. OK, you'd expect it to, but the surprise for me was the axle tramp. I can live with some wheelspin (and there are times when it can be "exciting"), but the violent vibration of the wheels and engine banging up and down on its mountings is deeply unpleasant, and probably terribly bad for the car too... Moving to 18" wheels/tyres helped marginally, but not much. Surely the collective might of VW/Audi could fix such a flaw?

I have no issues with the interior. I lived with a MkII Leon FR for 8 years and this is light-years ahead. Materials are fine quality, and infotainment (Mirrorlink / NAV) works well. SEAT Sound System for £250 extra (sub + centre speaker on dash) makes a big difference and is a steal. Not the last word in design flair, but then again, neither is an Audi or VW interior...

Finally, I got mine with almost an 18% discount new, which meant a price sub £25k. I see the list prices are getting quite aggressive now, especially for ST + DSG + 4wd (£35k?). Pound devaluation versus Euro hasn't helped...

[tonyb1968]

StarmistBlue400 said:

I am well pleased with my 290 Black. OK so there is bugger all traction in this weather and I have a really irritating rattle but....

I am paying £275 per month inc VAT on a 2yr 10K per year deal, its loaded with kit, reasonable on MPG, looks good, has great seats and goes like stink. Its a bargain. Would I have wanted a 135i or Golf R? Of course I would but the lease deals were not as good.

Im not sure its a car you would lust after but for me it was a no brainer.

People don't know what it is ether so it really catches people out.

Considering that the depreciation on these is pretty bad, what was the deposit for the 275 per month and is that private or business contract?

[SuperchargedVR6]

Dan Trent said:

And for all you conspiracy theorists out there the equivalent front-driven hot Golfs get an 'anti-tramp' system as standard that, for whatever reason, isn't included when they ship the powertrain to SEAT. Funny that, eh!

It can easily be applied to the SEAT because it's just an extension to the ESP program, which brakes the wheel about to spin. I guess SEAT look at many areas to undercut the Golf, but what's always struck me as weird is how they don't apply that piece of software, but fit Brembo brakes, where the Golf gets generic iron calipers. Odd.

[Dale487]

alock said:

Onehp said:

One thing I don't get is the "the VW is a much, much nicer environment than the SEAT". Yes quality is a bit better on a few details but otherwise my Cupra has been flawless. And sitting in the VW, I just don't see what is supposedly so nice about the design. Much more shiny plastic, lower mounted screen? Nothing I would value, rather the opposite.

I don't understand it either.

The pictures make the point I was trying to get over perfectly..

[SuperchargedVR6]

Dale487 said:

alock said:

Onehp said:

One thing I don't get is the "the VW is a much, much nicer environment than the SEAT". Yes quality is a bit better on a few details but otherwise my Cupra has been flawless. And sitting in the VW, I just don't see what is supposedly so nice about the design. Much more shiny plastic, lower mounted screen? Nothing I would value, rather the opposite.

I don't understand it either.

The pictures make the point I was trying to get over perfectly..

Personal tastes on the styling aside, the SEAT interior is clearly much lower rent than VW's. And ditto Audi vs VW.

And it doesn't stop there. Put a Golf and an A3 side by side, the A3 has tighter panel gaps (that actually align properly) and a meatier thunk to the doors.

The people who keep saying "A Skoda is a VW underneath" actually need to compare the 2 cars in the flesh, properly, before trotting out the same old nonsense. Underneath....yes.....the floor. Everything else....totally different.

[duckson]

tonyb1968 said:

Considering that the depreciation on these is pretty bad, what was the deposit for the 275 per month and is that private or business contract?

Mine is £249 a month, 1+23 and 10k pa (manual Black 290). I also have a M135i (purchase), i'd take the M135i over the Cupra due to it sounding much better (the Cupra sounds like a diesel in comparison!) and the RWD is more entertaining to drive IMO. Its early days in the Cupra lease so it may grow on me given time, we'll see.