RE: Enjoying a fast car slowly
Discussion
V8RX7 said:
...the vast majority who aren't concentrating on driving.
Sadly true. Thinking actively is frighteningly absent in many drivers.Liked the article, makes me think how a slow countryside trundle with smooth gearchanges can be as enjoyable, albeit in a different way, as a more dramatic and fast drive. It's ultimately all in the finer driving elements.
Loyly said:
dc2rr07 said:
Yes training Police 
who took 60 years to decide in certain circumstances it is OK to cross your hands on a steering wheel rather than use the push pull technique.
The distinction to be made there probably comes from the Roadcraft manual's origins, when it was very prescriptive in terms of technique. Not to mention that the original panda cars probably had a ponderously slow unassisted steering racks! Some prescription on technique is usually necessary, because although crossing the hands is useful and permissable, most drivers rely too heavily on it, and will cross their hands without thinking even when it won't afford enough steering to make it round a bend at high speed. who took 60 years to decide in certain circumstances it is OK to cross your hands on a steering wheel rather than use the push pull technique.Not to get hung up on that point though. If you dont think you have anything to learn or improve on, you probably require more improvement than most.
I normally agree with you on here Dan but Advanced driving on the road just seems to be the human equivalent of the electronics making you go faster. As they service "risk compensation" so does saying "I've been on an advanced driving course for the road" so you think you can bend the laws of physics more.
I think driver tuition on race track is better than most other things you can do to your car. For the road I think driver tuition is better off done by the police etc, especially if you are on two wheels, and is more about the total environment pitfalls rather than point to point.
Lets be blunt, fast cars now cannot be enjoyed slowly. Not when even the steering is EPAS. Look at the new NSX, it has EPAS and brake by wire, electric motors at the wheels cued into more cpu power than NASA had up to 1978.
I'm not sure driving that car slowly can be fun.
Strangely enough the latest Nissan GT-R Nismo has hydraulic steering still. And this was a car that was the Playstation generation / TRON car in the past. And yet now, in it's elderly years, it seems to be almost analogue compared to the hybrid modern generation.
The best thing is not to have too much tuition, nor wide tyred and overpowered cars, but to have something that lets you experiment and have fun and cock it up at slow speeds. So you go home laughing, and if it goes wrong, not too sad. Everyone needs a car that when spanked by it is not too hard, financially etc, so to continue the great driving journey and to keep your mojo up.
Having said that, any tuition is good, but don't go Trump
I think driver tuition on race track is better than most other things you can do to your car. For the road I think driver tuition is better off done by the police etc, especially if you are on two wheels, and is more about the total environment pitfalls rather than point to point.
Lets be blunt, fast cars now cannot be enjoyed slowly. Not when even the steering is EPAS. Look at the new NSX, it has EPAS and brake by wire, electric motors at the wheels cued into more cpu power than NASA had up to 1978.
I'm not sure driving that car slowly can be fun.
Strangely enough the latest Nissan GT-R Nismo has hydraulic steering still. And this was a car that was the Playstation generation / TRON car in the past. And yet now, in it's elderly years, it seems to be almost analogue compared to the hybrid modern generation.
The best thing is not to have too much tuition, nor wide tyred and overpowered cars, but to have something that lets you experiment and have fun and cock it up at slow speeds. So you go home laughing, and if it goes wrong, not too sad. Everyone needs a car that when spanked by it is not too hard, financially etc, so to continue the great driving journey and to keep your mojo up.
Having said that, any tuition is good, but don't go Trump
This might seem a bit off topic to begin with, but I would suggest you do a fair bit of motorcycling, and then read a book by Keith Code, "Twist of the wrist". Keith taught many students, including Kevin Schwantz.
One of the exercises he does is to keep the bike in gear around a track, and then NEVER use the brake. This is intended to show you just how much you can lean on your suspension, but also to REALLY judge vehicle speed and approaching corners.
Another point revolves around line of sight; in Right hand drive cars, going around a left hand bend, you can generally be as far over to the right as possible.
Going around a right hand bend, your best line of sight would require you to be as far to the left as reasonably possible.
I wouldn't call it a racing line per se, but the principle still applies (best sight line possible). This isnt just for the sake of being able to unleash thousands of bhp, but being able to see whatever hazards lie in wait. Line of sight is defensive driving, and if you think about it like that, not only might it prevent an accident, but it might allow you to drive a little more smoothly as well.
One of the exercises he does is to keep the bike in gear around a track, and then NEVER use the brake. This is intended to show you just how much you can lean on your suspension, but also to REALLY judge vehicle speed and approaching corners.
Another point revolves around line of sight; in Right hand drive cars, going around a left hand bend, you can generally be as far over to the right as possible.
Going around a right hand bend, your best line of sight would require you to be as far to the left as reasonably possible.
I wouldn't call it a racing line per se, but the principle still applies (best sight line possible). This isnt just for the sake of being able to unleash thousands of bhp, but being able to see whatever hazards lie in wait. Line of sight is defensive driving, and if you think about it like that, not only might it prevent an accident, but it might allow you to drive a little more smoothly as well.
Edited by big_rob_sydney on Sunday 19th February 17:55
I'm surprised at the level of negativity there seems to be towards advanced driving in this thread. I suggest people try an IAM or RoSPA course before dismissing it. I don't follow everything I was taught religiously - see crossing of hands - but it sharpened up my observation which is good for both safety and making decent progress.
I think it's easy for people to get tied up in the details of a particular 'system' and forget that what is actually important is the system itself!
Ie Handweel inputs, the reason basic techniques that seem ponderous and slow are taught is two fold:
1) they slow you down! If a handwheel input takes longer, your going to give yourself more time to do it, and probably apply it a bit more smoothly
2) It teaches you to follow the system automatically/instincitively, even in extremis, which is when it actually matters!
Ie Handweel inputs, the reason basic techniques that seem ponderous and slow are taught is two fold:
1) they slow you down! If a handwheel input takes longer, your going to give yourself more time to do it, and probably apply it a bit more smoothly
2) It teaches you to follow the system automatically/instincitively, even in extremis, which is when it actually matters!
Firstly, many thanks for the article Dan - a nice summary of our run out!
Just to answer a couple of points made in the subsequent comments, firstly, using the full width of the road has a number of benefits, providing you're very careful with your choice of where you do, and where you don't go offside. Taking an offside position through right-handers extends the radius of the turn, giving the car and driver less to do and leaving some extra tyre grip in reserve. On crown-cambered roads, it also gives you the benefit of the camber helping you around the corner.
On the approach to left-handers, moving offside gives you an earlier view through the corner and allows you to identify what the limit point is doing (relative to your position) at an earlier point. It also starts the process of extending the radius of the turn, with the associated benefits as listed above.
But (and it is a big but).
You must be absolutely sure that moving offside will not bring you into conflict with any other road user, either seen or unseen, so the technique should be reserved only for extremely well-sighted corners where you have a full view into, through, out the other side and beyond. Otherwise, positioning for corners should be limited to the left-side of the centre-line.
There is some scope to go partially offside on the approach to a left-hander with a more limited view, but you should start a long way back and then taper your approach so that you're back to the left of the centre-line well before the corner. This approach doesn't really give you the advantage of extending the radius, but will give you an earlier indication of what the limit point is doing.
To those who think that further road training isn't necessary, I take my hat off to you, as you're clearly a far superior driver than I'll ever be. My view is that if you're a driver, you should never stop learning and after 30 years driving (and countless courses & a few qualifications), I honestly learn something new every time I get in the car either as a driver, passenger or coach. I'll never stop learning.
There is probably a bit of an issue with the image of "advanced" (I prefer the term "better") driving - I'm well aware of the stringback & pipe, wheel-shuffling image that many enthusiastic drivers have in mind, but honestly, there are many different levels to better road driving. Although I'm an examiner for the IAM & RoSPA, I'm also an experienced & enthusiastic "sporting" driver myself, so I've sort of developed an additional level which sits somewhere between IAM/RoSPA systematic driving and the quicker, more progressive approach taken by police advanced training.
If anyone thinks the style is "old fashioned" or anachronistic, I'd challenge them to try it before jumping to conclusions. It's possible to use a systematic, smooth approach and still cover ground very quickly indeed - smooth use of the cars controls allows you to move the weight of the car around on it's springs & tyres in a more progressive manner and helps you to carry more speed through corners than a rough approach. The best drivers keep their (and their cars) workload to a minimum, which gives them the spare capacity to deal with any emerging issues. And that's really what it's all about - giving yourself the spare capacity to drive quickly and safely without putting anyone at any unnecessary risk.
Just to answer a couple of points made in the subsequent comments, firstly, using the full width of the road has a number of benefits, providing you're very careful with your choice of where you do, and where you don't go offside. Taking an offside position through right-handers extends the radius of the turn, giving the car and driver less to do and leaving some extra tyre grip in reserve. On crown-cambered roads, it also gives you the benefit of the camber helping you around the corner.
On the approach to left-handers, moving offside gives you an earlier view through the corner and allows you to identify what the limit point is doing (relative to your position) at an earlier point. It also starts the process of extending the radius of the turn, with the associated benefits as listed above.
But (and it is a big but).
You must be absolutely sure that moving offside will not bring you into conflict with any other road user, either seen or unseen, so the technique should be reserved only for extremely well-sighted corners where you have a full view into, through, out the other side and beyond. Otherwise, positioning for corners should be limited to the left-side of the centre-line.
There is some scope to go partially offside on the approach to a left-hander with a more limited view, but you should start a long way back and then taper your approach so that you're back to the left of the centre-line well before the corner. This approach doesn't really give you the advantage of extending the radius, but will give you an earlier indication of what the limit point is doing.
To those who think that further road training isn't necessary, I take my hat off to you, as you're clearly a far superior driver than I'll ever be. My view is that if you're a driver, you should never stop learning and after 30 years driving (and countless courses & a few qualifications), I honestly learn something new every time I get in the car either as a driver, passenger or coach. I'll never stop learning.
There is probably a bit of an issue with the image of "advanced" (I prefer the term "better") driving - I'm well aware of the stringback & pipe, wheel-shuffling image that many enthusiastic drivers have in mind, but honestly, there are many different levels to better road driving. Although I'm an examiner for the IAM & RoSPA, I'm also an experienced & enthusiastic "sporting" driver myself, so I've sort of developed an additional level which sits somewhere between IAM/RoSPA systematic driving and the quicker, more progressive approach taken by police advanced training.
If anyone thinks the style is "old fashioned" or anachronistic, I'd challenge them to try it before jumping to conclusions. It's possible to use a systematic, smooth approach and still cover ground very quickly indeed - smooth use of the cars controls allows you to move the weight of the car around on it's springs & tyres in a more progressive manner and helps you to carry more speed through corners than a rough approach. The best drivers keep their (and their cars) workload to a minimum, which gives them the spare capacity to deal with any emerging issues. And that's really what it's all about - giving yourself the spare capacity to drive quickly and safely without putting anyone at any unnecessary risk.
ToothbrushMan said:
I think most car enthusiasts if they are on their own on the perfect day and on the right road are more than capable of driving fairly well. nobody is looking to shave 2/10ths off their time or strictly adhere to getting "the right line" or position etc.....i dont see what on earth all that is about in the real world. Seeing ahead, checking your horizons, checking for possible side roads or hazards is surely all common sense stuff.
the flipside is usually when you get into some tussle with another car-9 times out of 10 if its with a complete stranger the pair of you are going hammer and tongs because either youre in front and want to stay there or your behind and want to catch the guy in front or go past and all that flannel about smoothness, matching revs to road speed and positioning pony gets thrown right out of the drivers window during those red mist moments (well all thats true if youre honest with yourself). In the heat of those typical moments do you really stop and think "ooh hang on ive got to get my road position right here and I dont want to cut this corner there......" blah blah blah.
Regs style comes from a different time with different attitudes I'm afraid, an honest and gentlemanly time.
I think that Reg's style comes from an approach which means you won't be in that 'tussle'the flipside is usually when you get into some tussle with another car-9 times out of 10 if its with a complete stranger the pair of you are going hammer and tongs because either youre in front and want to stay there or your behind and want to catch the guy in front or go past and all that flannel about smoothness, matching revs to road speed and positioning pony gets thrown right out of the drivers window during those red mist moments (well all thats true if youre honest with yourself). In the heat of those typical moments do you really stop and think "ooh hang on ive got to get my road position right here and I dont want to cut this corner there......" blah blah blah.
Regs style comes from a different time with different attitudes I'm afraid, an honest and gentlemanly time.
I have several cars including a two seater sports car - sometimes people come along who might choose to try and race - I am sure many have seen it - the aggressive challenging / revving the engine / etc. - Reg's method (which I admire and follow) is simple - back out - turn off - slow down - if necessary stop...
Once they are gone - then back to enjoying the drive / the corners / the positioning / the handling of the car...
That seems to be an admirable modern up to date method...
Gandahar said:
I normally agree with you on here Dan but Advanced driving on the road just seems to be the human equivalent of the electronics making you go faster. As they service "risk compensation" so does saying "I've been on an advanced driving course for the road" so you think you can bend the laws of physics more.
Absolutely see where you're coming from and I've probably said much the same myself. But if we accept that attempting to drive a modern car up to the limit (ooh, I'm on it, I saw a flicker of DSC light!) you're probably on a hiding to nothing. What really surprised me was that by employing Reg's methods a car like the F-Type - heavy, big tyres, poor visibility, EPAS, driver modes, etc... - communicated much more of the stuff we like without even getting near the thresholds of the electronic safety nets and with a healthy margin for error/the unexpected/etc... into the bargain. So I was getting more sense of the car's balance on the throttle and steering feel than I ever have before and when driving it 'harder'. I think there's a temptation in modern cars for the likes of us to try entertain ourselves and 'defeat' the electronics/tyres/grip by fair means or foul. Inevitably this means either going really, really, really hard or deliberately unsettling the car with contrived, exaggerated or deliberately 'wrong' inputs to see if we can provoke a reaction. And when we get that chirrup or flash of yellow light on dash we think we've achieved that. Guilty as charged here.
This won't work on all cars because there are many that conceal their true nature so far under the electronic this and variable that you'll never really get a sense of it. Which is why here on PH we'll work to seek out and celebrate those that do, be they Suzuki Swifts or McLaren 675LTs. And, yes, I'd count the GT-R as one of them. You can get so much from that car well within its limits and at a fraction of its performance ability, which is one of the reasons I love it. Also because it proves those who think it's a 'digital' car for straight line heroes are talking utter crap too.
Rant over!
Dan
ToothbrushMan said:
I think most car enthusiasts if they are on their own on the perfect day and on the right road are more than capable of driving fairly well. nobody is looking to shave 2/10ths off their time or strictly adhere to getting "the right line" or position etc.....i dont see what on earth all that is about in the real world. Seeing ahead, checking your horizons, checking for possible side roads or hazards is surely all common sense stuff.
the flipside is usually when you get into some tussle with another car-9 times out of 10 if its with a complete stranger the pair of you are going hammer and tongs because either youre in front and want to stay there or your behind and want to catch the guy in front or go past and all that flannel about smoothness, matching revs to road speed and positioning pony gets thrown right out of the drivers window during those red mist moments (well all thats true if youre honest with yourself). In the heat of those typical moments do you really stop and think "ooh hang on ive got to get my road position right here and I dont want to cut this corner there......" blah blah blah.
Regs style comes from a different time with different attitudes I'm afraid, an honest and gentlemanly time.
a very PH view.the flipside is usually when you get into some tussle with another car-9 times out of 10 if its with a complete stranger the pair of you are going hammer and tongs because either youre in front and want to stay there or your behind and want to catch the guy in front or go past and all that flannel about smoothness, matching revs to road speed and positioning pony gets thrown right out of the drivers window during those red mist moments (well all thats true if youre honest with yourself). In the heat of those typical moments do you really stop and think "ooh hang on ive got to get my road position right here and I dont want to cut this corner there......" blah blah blah.
Regs style comes from a different time with different attitudes I'm afraid, an honest and gentlemanly time.
grab the steering wheel tightly, mash the throttle, focus on the bumper in front.
Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark and Stirling are from a different era and not relevant today.
i appreciate i've conflated road driving with racing there, but some will see my point.
Dan Trent said:
Absolutely see where you're coming from and I've probably said much the same myself. But if we accept that attempting to drive a modern car up to the limit (ooh, I'm on it, I saw a flicker of DSC light!) you're probably on a hiding to nothing. What really surprised me was that by employing Reg's methods a car like the F-Type - heavy, big tyres, poor visibility, EPAS, driver modes, etc... - communicated much more of the stuff we like without even getting near the thresholds of the electronic safety nets and with a healthy margin for error/the unexpected/etc... into the bargain. So I was getting more sense of the car's balance on the throttle and steering feel than I ever have before and when driving it 'harder'.
I think there's a temptation in modern cars for the likes of us to try entertain ourselves and 'defeat' the electronics/tyres/grip by fair means or foul. Inevitably this means either going really, really, really hard or deliberately unsettling the car with contrived, exaggerated or deliberately 'wrong' inputs to see if we can provoke a reaction. And when we get that chirrup or flash of yellow light on dash we think we've achieved that. Guilty as charged here.
This won't work on all cars because there are many that conceal their true nature so far under the electronic this and variable that you'll never really get a sense of it. Which is why here on PH we'll work to seek out and celebrate those that do, be they Suzuki Swifts or McLaren 675LTs. And, yes, I'd count the GT-R as one of them. You can get so much from that car well within its limits and at a fraction of its performance ability, which is one of the reasons I love it. Also because it proves those who think it's a 'digital' car for straight line heroes are talking utter crap too.
Rant over!
Dan
great post Dan.I think there's a temptation in modern cars for the likes of us to try entertain ourselves and 'defeat' the electronics/tyres/grip by fair means or foul. Inevitably this means either going really, really, really hard or deliberately unsettling the car with contrived, exaggerated or deliberately 'wrong' inputs to see if we can provoke a reaction. And when we get that chirrup or flash of yellow light on dash we think we've achieved that. Guilty as charged here.
This won't work on all cars because there are many that conceal their true nature so far under the electronic this and variable that you'll never really get a sense of it. Which is why here on PH we'll work to seek out and celebrate those that do, be they Suzuki Swifts or McLaren 675LTs. And, yes, I'd count the GT-R as one of them. You can get so much from that car well within its limits and at a fraction of its performance ability, which is one of the reasons I love it. Also because it proves those who think it's a 'digital' car for straight line heroes are talking utter crap too.
Rant over!
Dan
there's a growing divide between those who enjoy the hobby of driving and those who enjoy the joy of cars.
I love driving slow. The odd bit if speed every now and then is good but it stresses me out something terrible. Driving a e39 525i and an MR2 Roadster and both are great slow cars. Having driven some very slow cars like a 306 non-turbo diesel and a 1.6 diesel golf again with no turbo and both could lift-off over steer at ridiculously slow speeds but both car were great fun and I never felt like I was ever going to kill myself, fun without dying, great.
[quote=Purity14]
From someone who has been on the recieving end of a car in my lane hitting me head on in similar circumstances, I can assure you the look on my face inside my helmet before impact would not be the look you were expecting.
Next time I am sailing through the air in similar circumstances I will remind myself that it is Reg's approved technique./quote]
Your knee must be in agony jerking it that hard.
From someone who has been on the recieving end of a car in my lane hitting me head on in similar circumstances, I can assure you the look on my face inside my helmet before impact would not be the look you were expecting.
Next time I am sailing through the air in similar circumstances I will remind myself that it is Reg's approved technique./quote]
Your knee must be in agony jerking it that hard.
Glad to see this piece. In todays performance car world, almost all the focus is on the car and its performance, and the driving is a given fact and not discussed or mentioned. Similarly, conveying a passion for cars is easy, the same for driving is much harder. The mere suggestion that you're more interested in driving than someone else and thus implying that you might think you're a better driver then them... Oh dear. It's here too.
Still.
I'm very thankful to PH and especially RL, it's just about the only place on the internet where better driving is discussed and where I had the opportunity to do self studies. As far as I know, advanced road driving, better driving, is virtually nonexistent outside the UK. With billions people driving in this world, it's amazing road driving training is limited to getting a drivers licence and perhaps the odd eco driver training.
Still.
I'm very thankful to PH and especially RL, it's just about the only place on the internet where better driving is discussed and where I had the opportunity to do self studies. As far as I know, advanced road driving, better driving, is virtually nonexistent outside the UK. With billions people driving in this world, it's amazing road driving training is limited to getting a drivers licence and perhaps the odd eco driver training.
Edited by Onehp on Monday 20th February 00:09
ToothbrushMan said:
faster and safer.....OK.
Odd isn't it? When out on a fun drive on a twisty back road, I find myself having a pace far higher than 'normal' road users. Yet when meeting oncoming traffic in a narrow bend with limited visibility, I'm the one with my car as far as possible on my side, wheels in the grass and virtually at a standstill, with the other normal and perfectly 'safe' driver almost hitting me as they swerve at the very last instant to avoid me, still doing the same (low) speed they entered the corner. This happens to me all the time. To turn it around, slower and less safe, yes, it's everywhere...
Perhaps you could give better driving techniques a try? Assuming there is room for improvement (double edged sword that one)...
big_rob_sydney said:
This might seem a bit off topic to begin with, but I would suggest you do a fair bit of motorcycling, and then read a book by Keith Code, "Twist of the wrist". Keith taught many students, including Kevin Schwantz.
'Twist of the Wrist' is a good book but I think the second volume (and the ultra cheesy but very useful film) is even better. The stuff about identifying and avoiding SR's is really good and the video demos about steering, loading the suspension and corner approach are excellent. In general, I think learning to ride a motorcycle is one of the best things you can do for your driving. You can't slop about on a bike like you can in a car. 'Better driving' had always been a passion of mine. I'm as much into the standards of my drive as I am into the cars and bikes I enjoy. I've still got a long way to go, mind, and I've enjoyed plenty of courses and fantastic experiences on the road.
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