2WD is better in the snow than 4WD - what ?!
Discussion
CABC said:
most people in the alps don't have 4wd.
i've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
A few years back I found myself in the snows of the Massif Central. I was struggling on summer tyres in my MX5 whilst si've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
tting bricks, but I was amazed at how everybody else was just driving as normal, all in 2wd cars, bog-standard hatchbacks etc. Winter tyres, obviously.In the UK the numbers of people who feel the need for 4x4's, for no apparent reason...
CABC said:
matchmaker said:
I had a BMW 323i on 4 studded winter tyres. I then had a Cavalier 4x4 on bog standard tyres. In snow the BMW wouldn't have been able to go where the Cavalier went.
You've added another dimension there.4x4 normal tyres vs bmw on winters, bmw wins in snow.
I have no experience of studs. Obviously they're intended for Nordic regions where roads have a layer of winter ice on them. Studs may well just rotate right through snow. Do studs normally get fitted to siped tyres? Do some Nordic drivers have 3 tyres? Studded, winter & summer?
matchmaker said:
CABC said:
matchmaker said:
I had a BMW 323i on 4 studded winter tyres. I then had a Cavalier 4x4 on bog standard tyres. In snow the BMW wouldn't have been able to go where the Cavalier went.
You've added another dimension there.4x4 normal tyres vs bmw on winters, bmw wins in snow.
I have no experience of studs. Obviously they're intended for Nordic regions where roads have a layer of winter ice on them. Studs may well just rotate right through snow. Do studs normally get fitted to siped tyres? Do some Nordic drivers have 3 tyres? Studded, winter & summer?
I wouldn't know I'm afraid, my only experience is with winter tyres and normal tyres. I've never used studs or snow chains. We don't get that much here, but the roads aren't cleared or salted and we often get up to a foot of virgin snow on the roads during my commute to work. My Celica 4WD was utterly useless, but my BMWs with winter tyres are fine, provided you're sensible. Lack of DBW throttle delay also helps - all modern petrol BMWs are afflicted with it, which makes it impossible to drive smoothly, which is obviously detrimental to winter driving. A 4x4 with winter tyres is obviously the ultimate, but most people find it unnecessary. With 3-5 foot of snow though, you may be an exception to that rule.
996TT02 said:
BUT... even with open diffs, there is still less likelyhood of losing traction, because the torque (before any slip) is distributed (and hence reduced, per wheel) between 4 and not 2 wheels, so 4wd is still better.
Very true.If <say> 50Nm of torque at the wheel with least grip is going to brake traction, and it's going down evenly, then 2wd needs to be putting 100Nm down, while 4wd needs to be putting 200Nm down.
RobM77 said:
matchmaker said:
CABC said:
matchmaker said:
I had a BMW 323i on 4 studded winter tyres. I then had a Cavalier 4x4 on bog standard tyres. In snow the BMW wouldn't have been able to go where the Cavalier went.
You've added another dimension there.4x4 normal tyres vs bmw on winters, bmw wins in snow.
I have no experience of studs. Obviously they're intended for Nordic regions where roads have a layer of winter ice on them. Studs may well just rotate right through snow. Do studs normally get fitted to siped tyres? Do some Nordic drivers have 3 tyres? Studded, winter & summer?
I can also confirm the BMW driver cannot resist having a smug look as it happens
RobM77 said:
CABC said:
most people in the alps don't have 4wd.
i've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
Actually, most people living in the alps have normal 2WD cars. We holiday there most years and the lack of 4x4s is very noticeable. Not only that, but we tend to holiday in remote regions with gravel tracks and tiny lanes. Everyone seems to have Yarises and Kas with the odd 2WD 3 series or C Class.i've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
From Sweden, driven most configurations/drives/tyres weather combinations, both slowly and in 'anger'.
Like said before, there is a very important difference between traction and grip. 4wd traction only becomes 'better' if the alternative has too little. Grip using appropriate tyres however is relevant for safe driving, cornering and braking and also for traction. So the logical first step is better grip.
But for the sake of argument, like for like, 4wd traction should almost always be better. Some exceptions already mentioned, another one is split mju and a lsd fwd vs brake based torque vectoring 4wd.
But with better traction, we have a saying that the cars found the furthest into the fields (if lucky, otherwise the flattest against the trees) are the 4wd cars. Basically because they don't have more grip, but have the traction to drive faster without the driver noticing how slippery it is. So from that point of view, 4wd is definitely worse in the snow.
Oh, and BMW is the worlds biggest manufacturer of 4wd vehicles iirc.
Like said before, there is a very important difference between traction and grip. 4wd traction only becomes 'better' if the alternative has too little. Grip using appropriate tyres however is relevant for safe driving, cornering and braking and also for traction. So the logical first step is better grip.
But for the sake of argument, like for like, 4wd traction should almost always be better. Some exceptions already mentioned, another one is split mju and a lsd fwd vs brake based torque vectoring 4wd.
But with better traction, we have a saying that the cars found the furthest into the fields (if lucky, otherwise the flattest against the trees) are the 4wd cars. Basically because they don't have more grip, but have the traction to drive faster without the driver noticing how slippery it is. So from that point of view, 4wd is definitely worse in the snow.
Oh, and BMW is the worlds biggest manufacturer of 4wd vehicles iirc.
Zirconium said:
RobM77 said:
CABC said:
most people in the alps don't have 4wd.
i've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
Actually, most people living in the alps have normal 2WD cars. We holiday there most years and the lack of 4x4s is very noticeable. Not only that, but we tend to holiday in remote regions with gravel tracks and tiny lanes. Everyone seems to have Yarises and Kas with the odd 2WD 3 series or C Class.i've seen plenty of uk 4wd vehicles in the alps sliding all over the place.
and the answer is....
Onehp said:
Oh, and BMW is the worlds biggest manufacturer of 4wd vehicles iirc.
That makes me raise my eyebrows...I wouldn't even have thought they were close. Think about all the 4wd pickups and the like that GM, Ford, Toyota sell in the states. They must surely massively outnumber X5/3/1s and the relatively few x-drive series.
Blimey.
I wasn't expecting so many pages so soon.
You do realise I was just posting an Ebay reply as to why somebodys 2nd hand 20 year old Japanese non descript oil burning people carrier was best in the snow - in a funny/piss take/can't believe the reply sort of way don't ya ??!!
Shall I tell him to put winter tyres on it - it'll be awesome. 😎
I wasn't expecting so many pages so soon.
You do realise I was just posting an Ebay reply as to why somebodys 2nd hand 20 year old Japanese non descript oil burning people carrier was best in the snow - in a funny/piss take/can't believe the reply sort of way don't ya ??!!
Shall I tell him to put winter tyres on it - it'll be awesome. 😎
CABC said:
I have no experience of studs. Obviously they're intended for Nordic regions where roads have a layer of winter ice on them. Studs may well just rotate right through snow. Do studs normally get fitted to siped tyres? Do some Nordic drivers have 3 tyres? Studded, winter & summer?
I have plenty of experience, technology and advancement for rubber compounds have come quite far. In nordic Scandinavia the common practice is a set of winter and a set of summer tyres. The winter set will either be studded or not depending on the owners preference, though keeping in mind some cities now charge a tax upon entering whilst driving on studded due to the extra wear and environmental dust it creates. In general the non studded tyres are so good now the studs only have a benefit on clear ice, conditions which is fairly rare. Otherwise the regular winter tyres will get you where you need to go, and if they don't, most likely the driving conditions are such that the studs wouldn't make a difference and you shouldn't have been out driving in the first place. Driving has become quite commonplace, but it is a privilege, not a right, and sometimes you've got to surrender to nature and just stay at home until the roads have been cleared.
Regards
rxe said:
Hmmm.
I seem to remember 5th gear (or some similar show) took 2 Volkswagens, one 2WD and one 4WD and gradually increased their speed round a wet roundabout - the 4WD fell off the roundabout first because it was heavier.
This? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_AI seem to remember 5th gear (or some similar show) took 2 Volkswagens, one 2WD and one 4WD and gradually increased their speed round a wet roundabout - the 4WD fell off the roundabout first because it was heavier.
Autocar test with 2 similar Skoda Yeti's, 2wd with winter and 4wd with "standard" tyres.
The falling off the roundabout was probably in reference to where they drove in a constant radius circle, where the 4wd generated .17g lateral grip and the snow tyre generated .23g, 35% more according to the presenter.
The most telling bit of the video should be the braking test, where there are several car lengths between the two braking from only 20 mph. I don't know about the thoughts of the general driving gods on the road, but the technology of winter tyres was what happened whilst they were busy worshipping their "dab of oppo'" skills in their caves.
The ability to stop and steer (traction) should IMHO be at the top the list for every serious and safety conscious motorist. Driving god or not, accidents happen and I know sure as hell the vast distance between stopping on standard VS winters in cold conditions will be a life saver.
Regards
TooMany2cvs said:
Very true.
If <say> 50Nm of torque at the wheel with least grip is going to brake traction, and it's going down evenly, then 2wd needs to be putting 100Nm down, while 4wd needs to be putting 200Nm down.
I'm not sure that's correct - I was under the impression doubling the driven wheels quadruples the grip (square law).If <say> 50Nm of torque at the wheel with least grip is going to brake traction, and it's going down evenly, then 2wd needs to be putting 100Nm down, while 4wd needs to be putting 200Nm down.
The Swedish mantra is winter tyres first, 4x4 second. Obviously the best choice is a 4x4 equipped with winters.
At the last snowfall in the SE I watched my neighbour attempt to drive his ML Merc up the hill on summer biased tyres (they looked grippy but not full blown winters) and all that happened was lots of spinning and trampling and then a sideways slide down the hill.
At the last snowfall in the SE I watched my neighbour attempt to drive his ML Merc up the hill on summer biased tyres (they looked grippy but not full blown winters) and all that happened was lots of spinning and trampling and then a sideways slide down the hill.
My wifes uncle has a cabin in Geilo Norway, it's about a 4.5 hour drive for a normal person from Bergen, he drives over a mountain pass called Hardangervidda which during the winter is either extremely treacherous or closed. He does it in his 2012 520d in around the 3.5 hour mark, I've been with him and the RWD and good winter tyres combo is actually very good.
Some stock pictures....
Some stock pictures....
Edited by NordicCrankShaft on Thursday 23 February 19:42
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